Justin
Well-known member
Big Swede said:
can't argue with that either
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- Thread starter Justin
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can't argue with that either
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
Felt a rant coming on so bit my tongue!!!
loomixguy
Well-known member
There are huge differences in creep feed. Starch (grain) based creep WILL deposit fat on calves, whereas fiber (wheat mids, etc.,) based will give the growth desired without the fat deposits.
I have troughs out in pastures in the summer, many right next to creep feeders. The creep I've seen the Purina man deliver was absolutely the poorest quality pellets I have ever seen...over 20% fines and just awful stuff. I talked a dyed in the wool Purina man into trying some ADM Ignitor weaning feed last fall, and he pooped his pants when he saw what real pellets were supposed to look like. I don't think he's going back to the Purina guy next year...LOL.
I have troughs out in pastures in the summer, many right next to creep feeders. The creep I've seen the Purina man deliver was absolutely the poorest quality pellets I have ever seen...over 20% fines and just awful stuff. I talked a dyed in the wool Purina man into trying some ADM Ignitor weaning feed last fall, and he pooped his pants when he saw what real pellets were supposed to look like. I don't think he's going back to the Purina guy next year...LOL.
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
I think anytime you carry a pail full of grain past a chicken, a pig, an ethanol plant and a few million starving Africans to give it to a RUMINANT on grass your on a slippery slope. If your trying to get by a drought maybe then.
Big Swede
Well-known member
Any calf that gains 4#/day which is what he'll have to do from birth to 205 days is eating a lot of starch I would think. What does that do to his liver? I already know what it does to his feet. I still don't see any use for it in breeding bulls.
If you are feeding a fiber based creep it may be different, more protein and less energy. I still agree with NR, they're cows not sows. :lol:
If you are feeding a fiber based creep it may be different, more protein and less energy. I still agree with NR, they're cows not sows. :lol:
littlejoe
Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
A couple of rambling points:
Old timers used to talk about milk 'skipping a generation'---keep a heifer outa an exceptional milking cow and she turned out mediocre, but her heifer was a dandy. One interpretation was first heifer kept had too many grocery's, which screwed up her bag, so she never overfed her daughter and genetics were able to express themselves in next generation.
On commercial cattle, can creep feeding pay as good as it's been represented?
Very broadly, to try to explain my point:
Say you're weaning 500# calves, but with creep you can wean 600#, which salesman says extra 100# will cost you 50$,
And say 500# is worth 1.00 and 600# is .08 back @ .92
So--500#= $500.
But--when you sell that same first 500# as 5/6 of a 600# you only get paid .92 for it---so 460.
Ya, you still get more $--600 x.92=552. How ya' doing?
Now, this deal may change---in u.s. with lots of cheap grain (traditionally) calves generally worth more than yrlgs, yrlgs worth more than fats. I think in australia it's generally the opposite.
On quick breed up, good conception rates, i subscribe to the theory that it isn't just if nutritional requiremnts are being met and body score---it's very important if she reached that body score from gaining or losing weight---on the up, system tells itself 'things are lookin good' on the down, 'maybe tuff times ahead?'
I got a neighbor who traditionally pretty much starves his heifer calves thru the winter---the field they winter in is grubbed to the dirt and cattle look like hell--I doubt they'll gain 75# since weaning. But---he breeds for about apr 1 calving, they got a kinda subby field/wild hay that really seems to kinda 'flush' them and he consistently gets 97%+ bred up. He keeps all his heifers and his customers are mostly repeats.
Other old idioms:
1.If you're getting all your heifers bred up....
2.If you can't see a back rib or two on your cows someo of the time....
1.You're feeding too damn much!
2.You ain't got enuf cows!
Personally, I don't like seeing any ribs.
But---if you are getting all heifers bred up, don't look like much selection pressure while they're young and worth good money, does it?
I had one guy tell me he would only run stockers as he refused to have a cows weight flucuate thru out the yr and not get paid for putting it back on.
The guy across the fence from him looked at it as natural, just like a bear going into hibernation, he expected his cows to put on a couple hundred pounds in fall, early winter, calve out a couple bcs lower, flush on green grass and breed back.
Anyhow, just blabbing---got a nervous 2 yr old contemplating motherhood and I'm about to put my clown suit on and go participate.
Howdy1
Well-known member
I agree with little Joe. We don't subscribe to creep feeding ourselves but I do believe it has its place for some people. So if they want to spend the extra bucks to hopefully make a few more or run some extra cows during the summer what do I care?
Personally we have moved our mature cow date back some. They will start the fifth of April as opposed to mid march and we feed just the same as if we hadn't moved it. Granted that isn't a big move in the date but I can mean a lot in terms of late March storms.
I guess we don't buy into the whole let the cow fend for herself and let nature run its course. We feed well and hate to see thin cows. Just a personal decision. Even with this terrible cold winter I feed around 23# of long stem hay per day and my cows stay a nice BCS 5-6. I don't feel that is excessive for 1300-1350# cows. We don't have any natural protection just wide open plains and a few wind breaks (man made) so we have to provide for the old girls. They take good care of me so I will take good care of them! If I lived in the woods like some or had good natural wooded draws or creeks where they could graze and stay out of the wind then it would probably be a different story. I guess my point is that to keep bashing people who do choose to feed their livestock is silly because every situation is different. Granted our operation might not be run as cheap as it can be, but we have been doing this for over 100 years and we're still here. Must be doing something right, I hope. :?
I can tell you that two years ago we had the spring from hell with major spring storms one right after another. Everybody that prescribed into the let cows range it and not supplement them much, took an old fashioned butt whipping. The calves were born weak, cows had no colostrum, and calves just plain didn't survive. We had just come out of many years of terrible drought and dry (and easy) calving seasons. This whole idea of grazing all winter with no feed was working in this country but when winter returned and they didn't change their ways, well it cost them big.
Well better get back out and check a heifer who calved in the cold night. I am also one of the dunder heads that chooses to calve this time of year. :lol:
Howdy
ps-i guess a guy can really ramble on at 2 am
Personally we have moved our mature cow date back some. They will start the fifth of April as opposed to mid march and we feed just the same as if we hadn't moved it. Granted that isn't a big move in the date but I can mean a lot in terms of late March storms.
I guess we don't buy into the whole let the cow fend for herself and let nature run its course. We feed well and hate to see thin cows. Just a personal decision. Even with this terrible cold winter I feed around 23# of long stem hay per day and my cows stay a nice BCS 5-6. I don't feel that is excessive for 1300-1350# cows. We don't have any natural protection just wide open plains and a few wind breaks (man made) so we have to provide for the old girls. They take good care of me so I will take good care of them! If I lived in the woods like some or had good natural wooded draws or creeks where they could graze and stay out of the wind then it would probably be a different story. I guess my point is that to keep bashing people who do choose to feed their livestock is silly because every situation is different. Granted our operation might not be run as cheap as it can be, but we have been doing this for over 100 years and we're still here. Must be doing something right, I hope. :?
I can tell you that two years ago we had the spring from hell with major spring storms one right after another. Everybody that prescribed into the let cows range it and not supplement them much, took an old fashioned butt whipping. The calves were born weak, cows had no colostrum, and calves just plain didn't survive. We had just come out of many years of terrible drought and dry (and easy) calving seasons. This whole idea of grazing all winter with no feed was working in this country but when winter returned and they didn't change their ways, well it cost them big.
Well better get back out and check a heifer who calved in the cold night. I am also one of the dunder heads that chooses to calve this time of year. :lol:
Howdy
ps-i guess a guy can really ramble on at 2 am
The purina guy was here yesterday and we were talking creepfeed. It sounded to me like $75 worth of creep to add 80 to a 100#s of added weight. I do know a ranch here that creeps and their calves weigh off 125#s heavier than mine but I don't know there whole program. I do know that good fall grazeing on 2nd cut hayfields will do about the same but you need to fertilize to get it of the best quality the guys who wean the biggest calves here are the best grass farmers here. I don't have the best fall grass so I am leaning a bit towards creep feeding to get my calves a bit bigger before weaning so they have the size to utilize silage better. Here they normally pay the same in the country for 650# vs 550# last fall it was 3 cent's differance
Anybody use purina mineral it's $3 a bag cheaper than Vigortone and they deliver a ton at a time free.I'm thinking of jumping ship I handle vigotone and there's no margin for profit so it's more of a hinderance for me.
Anybody use purina mineral it's $3 a bag cheaper than Vigortone and they deliver a ton at a time free.I'm thinking of jumping ship I handle vigotone and there's no margin for profit so it's more of a hinderance for me.
loomixguy
Well-known member
Denny said:
Better check out the quality of his pellets before you buy. Not much left by the time they are augered into a creep feeder, at least down this way.
I feel a rant coming on about folks who sell feed and are not licensed and inspected by the state. Maybe this is not the case here but I'll quit for now.
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
These are cows all out grazing in late February that haven't ate a wisp of hay yet that winter. The oldest cow in the picture is coming 14 and has led her entire productive life under that system. This group of cattle weans calves from the low six hundreds to low sevens year after year in some pretty tough conditions. You can have adequate production coupled with thrifty cattle-in my mind a purebred herd should be able to pay it's way as a commercial outfit. Places like this don't have much glory but they are pretty sustainable. The biggest fallacy is that cattle that are made to be cows again are suffering-grain wrecked livers and feet aren't too bovine friendly either.
WVGenetics
Well-known member
loomixguy said:
True, there are differences in creep feed and the type of carbs that are in them. The two your talking about still don't have a lot of protein, they're basically all energy sources, just differences in the digestibility. When broken down by bacteria in the rumen, they all end up the same and have the ability to produce energy that is converted to and stored as fat when in excess. Wheat mids, soy hulls, some of the most digestible fiber sources you can buy! thats why they work so good for supplements! In fact, research has shown that supplementing cattle with straight corn on grass actually helps improve the fiber digestibility of the grass.
I don't think creeping has any place in the seedstock business, even if we can make adjustments to EPD's for it! How is the breeder supposed to accurately evaluate his own cattle then. All they may do is select for the calves that had the greatest appetites! and that has got us nowhere fast!
loomixguy
Well-known member
The ADM Rough N Ready (fiber based) creep runs 14% protein. No idea what the starch based creep runs.
If the summer has been rough, or if you are going to wean and background your calves, I can see some merit in creeping for the last 30 days before you wean. No need to bunk break the calves whatsoever. A few guys around here will creep a little before weaning, go ahead and wean, then run a feeding program for 28 days, then dump 'em out on pasture with creep once again.
FWIW, K State says that a small amount of urea will aid in fiber digestion for cattle on grass.
If the summer has been rough, or if you are going to wean and background your calves, I can see some merit in creeping for the last 30 days before you wean. No need to bunk break the calves whatsoever. A few guys around here will creep a little before weaning, go ahead and wean, then run a feeding program for 28 days, then dump 'em out on pasture with creep once again.
FWIW, K State says that a small amount of urea will aid in fiber digestion for cattle on grass.