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Scotch Cap Angus

Anyone that would question Doug and Molly's operation is either jealous or not aware of history.

Some "luck" was involved as they hit the big numbers just when epd's were introduced, but this was because Doug was breeding for performance.

The really big cows came along when he was involved with R&J out of Texas.

Dr. Ken Conway was herdsman/manager for R&J in those years. If his name sounds familiar, that's because he founded Angus Gene Net, many of you have likely had him sell your calves (maybe for the lot that bought from you).

Mention my name to The good Dr. and he will tell you about some good Western Canadian cows that made him a lot of money, and influenced the breed immensely.

Go back and check records from the 30's and even before, lots of Angus cows weighed over a ton then, and 3000 pound bulls were common.

Doug and Molly tried to get out of the day to day by selling off their mature cows and helping their daughter and her hubby run things... it only made a couple ads. Not sure if it was too much control from Doug trying to make sure things stayed the same, or not enough day to day from the next generation.... its a tough deal to pass on a sucessful outfit built on personal service.

I have used quite a few of Doug's bulls over the years, never just going on what he is promoting, but always agreeing with the general direction.

Calving problems usually only happened when guys with too small of cows tried a really big bull. Moderation in all things applies to increaseing performance as well.
 
FYI, here is a link to the Scotch Cap machinery and equipment auction. Click on Bison SD - Oct 17, 2006.

http://www.midwestauctions.com/weishaar/_private/index.html
 
We sold a bull to Doug and Molly several yers back, and they were inviting us to their sale, so we delivered the bull all the way. Dad and I stayed overnight and attended the sale. They were wonderful hosts and terrific people. I'll never forget Doug touring us through their 'calving paddock' for first-calvers. It was a half-section of open range, and those heifers were small. But I remember seeing Valedictorian up close and personal, and he was a monster. Well put together, with a set of huge good feet under him, but just massive. They had quite a sale too as I recall. A bull called Heartland started that sale, but I don't remember much about him.

Whatever they're doing, I for one wish them all the best.
 
Got this from their website. I guess maybe I am clueless about their operation Tap and Juan. My parents used to buy bulls from them like I said before. I have visited with Doug a few times and he has always been very nice and humble for all the success that he has had. If we ever had trouble with a bull, he was more that willing to work with us. I have heard a few negative things about him. I guess I figured it might have something to do with jealously.

"Doug & Molly purchased the cow herd from Doug's parents, Henry and Ava Hoff, and began breeding Angus cattle in 1967 using sires like Band 105 SC on their foundation Marshall females. For over three decades they culled this herd with no prejudice toward any pedigrees or bloodlines. The result was an extremely uniform and productive herd of cows and a swiftly growing and loyal demand among commercial cattlemen for those big, stout, easy-fleshing and extremely potent Hoff bulls. When the Angus Association switched from Breeding Values to EPD's, it was no surprise that half of the top 30 bulls and cows in the breed for growth came from the Hoff herd. This list included the no. 1 and no. 3 bulls, Scotch Cap and Hoff Valedictorian. Over the past 10 years no Angus herd in North America has consistently recorded a higher sale average on 100 bulls or more. In their last seven production sales, the Hoffs have sold 900 bulls for an average price of $4,640, including 48 bulls that sold for more than $10,000 each!"
 
Pure Country those were the two bulls I used of Hoff's back in the 'Performance at Any Cost' days. They were pretty sound cattle for sure feet wise-maybe not so much udderwise. I delivered a Hereford bull to Doug's father-in-law with my buddy years ago if I remember right.
 
Jason said:
Anyone that would question Doug and Molly's operation is either jealous or not aware of history.

Some "luck" was involved as they hit the big numbers just when epd's were introduced, but this was because Doug was breeding for performance.

The really big cows came along when he was involved with R&J out of Texas.

Dr. Ken Conway was herdsman/manager for R&J in those years. If his name sounds familiar, that's because he founded Angus Gene Net, many of you have likely had him sell your calves (maybe for the lot that bought from you).

Mention my name to The good Dr. and he will tell you about some good Western Canadian cows that made him a lot of money, and influenced the breed immensely.

Go back and check records from the 30's and even before, lots of Angus cows weighed over a ton then, and 3000 pound bulls were common.

Doug and Molly tried to get out of the day to day by selling off their mature cows and helping their daughter and her hubby run things... it only made a couple ads. Not sure if it was too much control from Doug trying to make sure things stayed the same, or not enough day to day from the next generation.... its a tough deal to pass on a sucessful outfit built on personal service.

I have used quite a few of Doug's bulls over the years, never just going on what he is promoting, but always agreeing with the general direction.

Calving problems usually only happened when guys with too small of cows tried a really big bull. Moderation in all things applies to increaseing performance as well.
Click to expand...

Jason--------You can sit up there in Can. and talk about "history" and brand someone as being "jealous" or ignorant and you don't have a clue about what went on! :cry: :cry: :cry:
 
Just got an e-mail advertising the sale...Says they are selling over 800 head... Here is a link to their catalog....

http://www.scotchcap.com/hoff_sca_2006_fall_sale.htm
 
DOC HARRIS said:
No that's the one I'm talking about-what a crappy deal that is. The big 'D' wrtecks alot of good plans.
Click to expand...
:?: :?: Could you go into a little more detail in your answer??

DOC HARRIS
Click to expand...

I would imagine he's talking about D-I-V-O-R-C-E....Lot of good ranches ending up in the hands of out of state hunters or land speculators hands because of it....
 
Jason, I will gaurantee you that there is no jealousy on my part. I would not trade operations or cattle with them for anything. There is nothing personal in any way on my part.

They are selling out and there is no reason to dump on them. But I will tell you why I don't care for their kind of genetics.


1. They do not make functional mother cows that can survive on minimal amounts of feed.

2. If there is such a thing (honestly) of a bull calf weaning off at 900+ lbs.- 205 wt.-, then what are those cattle going to finish at? 2000 live weight animals? For God's sake, those kind of weights are rediculous. And what size mother cow do they make? They would starve to death on a real ranch. We don't run our cows in a feedlot. Or have a hay farm nearby. Those kind of numbers p#ss me off actually.

3. IF supplements of any kind are used to achive these #'s, it is not an accurate figure.

I think that there is probably a place for these type of cattle, but western SD is not one of them. And YES, I have been to their FARM, and sale. A ranch is a misnomer. I do give them credit for shrewd marketing.
 
Tap said:
Jason, I will gaurantee you that there is no jealousy on my part. I would not trade operations or cattle with them for anything. There is nothing personal in any way on my part.

They are selling out and there is no reason to dump on them. But I will tell you why I don't care for their kind of genetics.


1. They do not make functional mother cows that can survive on minimal amounts of feed.

2. If there is such a thing (honestly) of a bull calf weaning off at 900+ lbs.- 205 wt.-, then what are those cattle going to finish at? 2000 live weight animals? For God's sake, those kind of weights are rediculous. And what size mother cow do they make? They would starve to death on a real ranch. We don't run our cows in a feedlot. Or have a hay farm nearby. Those kind of numbers p#ss me off actually.

3. IF supplements of any kind are used to achive these #'s, it is not an accurate figure.

I think that there is probably a place for these type of cattle, but western SD is not one of them. And YES, I have been to their FARM, and sale. A ranch is a misnomer. I do give them credit for shrewd marketing.
Click to expand...

Amen! :mad:

I got to agree with Tap 125 % on this.

Ditto! :x
 
Have either of you ever used their genetics?

Have either of you ever seen a wreck because of their genetics?

If not, your just repeating a bias.

I agree those kinds of weights take some groceries, but they have always backed any size with carcass data. The original Scotch Cap bull was and still is a carcass trait leader.

I have seen cows that stop growing under tougher ranch conditions, but will become monsters if the feed resources are available. I have also seen some of the biggest cows be the easiest fleshing and easiest breeding cows.

Management can add 100 or more pounds to 205 day weights. Good moisture areas can be managed easier than dry areas.

Commercial ranchers bought the majority of their bulls, paid good money, and came back year after year. Repeat business says they worked.
 
Jason said:
Have either of you ever used their genetics?

Have either of you ever seen a wreck because of their genetics?

If not, your just repeating a bias.

I agree those kinds of weights take some groceries, but they have always backed any size with carcass data. The original Scotch Cap bull was and still is a carcass trait leader.

I have seen cows that stop growing under tougher ranch conditions, but will become monsters if the feed resources are available. I have also seen some of the biggest cows be the easiest fleshing and easiest breeding cows.

Management can add 100 or more pounds to 205 day weights. Good moisture areas can be managed easier than dry areas.

Commercial ranchers bought the majority of their bulls, paid good money, and came back year after year. Repeat business says they worked.
Click to expand...

Yup, they worked all right. And that is why we have the size of angus cows we now have. Nuthin' wrong with that, if that's what you want to raise. I don't and I don't think Tap does either, tho' I sure don't need to speak for him.

What I am saying is, in my enviroment and they way I run my cows, I don't need or want cattle that big. I can't afford to feed them in the winter.

And I don't think the industry wants fat cattle that weight 2000 pounds when they are butchered. We may have to go to that and find a new way to cut steaks, so one person can eat all of one steak.

But for me, in my enviroment, I don't think I'll go that way for a long time.

If bigger was better, the deer would weigh 1000 to 2000 pounds. Mother nature keeps them from it.
 
You didn't even understand what I wrote.JB.

Hoff genetics will not get everyone 2000 pound cows.

Even Dougs cows don't weigh that as a norm.

I have Hoff genetics and have some 1300- 1500 pound cows smaller than some of my Traveler bred cows.

Spouting off about big cows are bad is your bias showing through. Bigger weight cows don't always cost more to run, surface area of their skin determines maintance needs. Sometimes a thicker cow will need less than a slim cow to survive a winter.
 
I've done embryo transfer work for the Hoff's intermittently since the mid 80's. They are very nice folks to work with.
I've also used some of their bulls. One that I remember in particular was a Heartland son. This bull got really big as he matured, but we never had calving trouble with any of the Hoff bulls, and they sure produced some big thick calves from our little 1100-1200 lb. cows.
My neighbor who helps us work our cattle bought the Heartland son after we'd used him as long as we could, and used him for several more years. He'd seen the calves from the bull for years, helping us, and wanted some like that.
 

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