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The Harding County Alias has returned

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As a former Deputy Sheriff and Sheriff I need to comment--The Sheriff and his employees respond more closely to the needs to the area-which in most states vary considerably depending upon terrain, population, economic factors, industrial differences, and rural and urban conditions- where the Fish & Game decisions are all made in the state Capitals based entirely on biologists and bean counters theories and ideas- usually by lifelong bureaucrats that could care less about the feeling of a "little local area".....

When I was Sheriff it took throwing one Highway Patrolman out of the county-and threatening to throw out 2 Game Wardens to bring these people back to the reallitys of the real world... But thankfully in Montana we still have that ability and the lifetime bureaucrats haven't taken over...
 
Rancher,

It means the post was deleted. Why? Because it was a duplicate of the post that followed it.

Either way I think you are still missing something. LOL!


~SH~
 
Oldtimer;
That is what I always suspected in this state.

Kind'a reminds you of some of the federal laws that are passed that make sense back east but don't work worth a hoot out here. We need more local input and controll.

I was told by our local deputy that the sheriff has the most power, out in the county. Above the GF&P and the Hiway patrol. Sure hope he is right. I know who my sheriff and deputy are. I hardly get to know the name of our CO and I don't know any Hiway patrol fellers.

And as for the last of that statement about the hiway patrol officers, just like Martha would say, "thats a good thing!" :lol:

Rancher;
I think he was cussin'! :oops:
 
~SH~ said:
Rancher,

It means the post was deleted. Why? Because it was a duplicate of the post that followed it.

Either way I think you are still missing something. LOL!


~SH~
Click to expand...


I was just being a smart $ss. I seen you had edited it. I know I am missing something, but can't remember what I am missing, so don't miss it much anymore.
 
Jinglebob,

Allow me to be candid.

First, I don't care what you think of me personally. I honestly don't! I'm not going to win any popularity contests presenting the facts on the issues we discuss and I fully expect the reprecussions for standing up for the truth.

Second, I don't care what you think of the way I post because I don't plan on changing that either.

Perhaps you didn't understand it the first time so I will repeat it. If you don't like the way I post DON'T READ MY POSTS!!!!

Discussing the manner in which I post is nothing more than a "red herring" to divert attention from what was actually stated.

I don't pull punches or walk on eggshells with anyone. What you see is what you get. Your phsychobabble regarding me and the manner in which I post falls on deaf ears.

I have a very low tolerance for liars, deceivers, and witch hunters and that is reflected in my posts.


JB: "SH, this is the main problem that I, and I think some others, have with the GF&P. No accountability to the very people whom they are supposed to be working for."

We are held accountable it's just simply impossible to satisfy all of the diverse interests out there.


JB: "But can't you see the frustration that some of us feel?"

No I can't feel the frustration that you feel because all you did is present generalizations. No specific concerns except that you don't feel landowners are being listened to.

One landowner says there is too many antelope. His neighbor says there is not enough. Both say that GF&P doesn't listen to them.

One landowner says we issue too many deer tags. The next landowner says we don't issue enough. Both say that GF&P doesn't listen to them.

One landowner doesn't want to see the Game Warden on his land, the next landowner says he wishes the Game Warden would stop more often. Both say that GF&P doesn't listen to them.

One landowner utilizes the GF&P ADC program and the next prefers to run their own ADC program while they bitch about the GF&P program.

One landowner wants transerable licenses when the next one doesn't.

CAN'T YOU SEE THE FRUSTRATION WITH TRYING TO MAKE EVERYONE "LESS MISERABLE"?

If you have a specific problem with GF&P, can't you pick up the phone and call the person who can answer your question rather than expecting them to show up at your door?

What would John Wayne think of this lack of self reliance?


~SH~
 
Thanks for th reply SH.

And the candor.

And I understand what you are saying about all of the different opinions and wants.

Maybe the GF&P should just have stronger local controll and more power there so that people who deal with the problems would be left to solve the problems.

I will try and see if I can get ahold of someone at Pierre, but I am afraid that it will solve nothing. But like a steer, I can always try!

And I really could care less what an imposter like John Wyne, who by the way didn't even use his real name, would think. From what I have read, I think he was a homophobe, a drunkard and a womanizer. Hardly traits that I would look up to. Him and his kind have done more to screw up what the impressions of ranchers and cowboys is to the rest of the world, and not to the good either.

Now that Clint Eastwood guy! There's a man! :wink:
 
~SH~ My comment is tell the Fish and Parks the same thing I told the Fish and Game here- Quit having the Game Wardens out counting fish and sage hens and have them working with what they deal with- the public....... If they are going to be law enforcement and work with the public, then thats what they should be hired to do- not on the fact they have a biology or forestry degree and know that deer and elk don't belong to the same family, or that antelope don't have antlers-- some of these guys don't even know how to talk to a person- but are great enviromentalists......They should be spending any free time meeting and building a repore with the people of their area-- At least when they transfer around the state they should have to meet the County Attorney, Sheriff, Judge and landowners....... I've known some great Game Wardens ( mostly years ago) - but some of the new college degree 90 day hand them a gun wonders make me cringe........
 
What i would like is four of every licence that pertains to my area to do with as i see fit.That would solve all my disputes.
 
SH quote "I have a very low tolerance for liars, deceivers, and witch hunters and that is reflected in my posts."


We feel the same. Very good post.
 
smalltime, what do you base the number four licenses upon?

I would like for the GFP to make periodic counts of game animal numbers and number of each sex of the animals in a given area. I would like that information available on a sort of grid or ranch basis so we would know how many animals we are raising. Then if "free" licenses could be made available to the landowner on a fair basis of compensation for the animals raised, the landowners could use them, give them away, or sell them as we see fit seems a fair deal to me.

It seems reasonable for employees of GFP to be a mix of biologists and wardens as there does need to be some science used in the management.

My biggest problem is purchases of land. I believe there is far too much land in the hands of government in this state and nation.

I've been told that game was put in the hands of the people (government of by and for the people) in this country because the Kings of Europe, especially England, "owned" the game and people here did not want that. It was believed the people should own the game. Funny how actual control slipped from "the people" into the hands of the "government" which has in practice become the "king".

The current angst and anger with the GFP may have more to do with the reality of attacks on private property rights from many directions, not just the GFP actions, or inactions as the case may be. GFP and the Open Fields Doctrine might just be the catalyst that moved people into actions.

Personally, I know we need regulation and action against "careless" and slob hunters, and I would like to be able to get a Game Warden to come out when we see a problem. I also believe better public relations, maybe even some "charm school" type training of all officers would go a long way to de-fuse current problems and perceived problems.

MRJ
 
LB: "You sure danced around this, but you didn't answer the question. Are you or are you not required to send your permission slips to the state GF&P."

SH (Previous): "If they are requested yes. I have permission slips on hand all the time that I keep on file in case they are requested."

So I gather your answer is NO. You don't need to send anything to Pierre, period. Why even require you to have them filled out? More "public relations"? The permitted aerial hunters would be grounded so fast it would make their heads spin if they hadn't filed with GF&P current permission slips that need to be signed by the landowner they are hunting for and updated every three years. If this isn't a double standard, I don't know what else you'd call it.

SH: "Can I prove that I have a release signed for every coyote and beaver complaint I work on. Yes I can. Will I? No I won't!"

So we only have the word of the trapper that he has permission slips signed, legally there is no verification at all? This is so consistent with the way GF&P operates that I'm not one bit surprised.

JB: "SH, this is the main problem that I, and I think some others, have with the GF&P. No accountability to the very people whom they are supposed to be working for."

You really nailed it with this jinglebob. GF&P is accountable to no one except the governor and the one we have now does everything Mr. Cooper wants him to.

JB: "But can't you see the frustration that some of us feel?"

SH: "No I can't feel the frustration that you feel because all you did is present generalizations. No specific concerns except that you don't feel landowners are being listened to."Well, duh! This issue is why we're slap dab in the middle of this whole lockout fuss. If GF&P would have been responsive to landowner concerns we wouldn't be having this discussion now and hunters would be planning on hunting aver 3, 750,000 acres of private land that is locked out across the state.

What happened to the big communications kick GF&P was touting last year? We have repeatedly communicated the problems we were having with GF&P employees and they are still in the same jobs in the same communities that brought the complaints.

Landowners are not being listened to? I should say not. Give me an example of just ONE problem employee who was either fired or transferred because of problems he created in the community he's supposed to "serve"?

The much touted West River Working Group was formed by Sec. Cooper to solve all these problems. He loaded it with a majority of folks he knew would vote the way he wanted them to, and nothing – I repeat – NOTHING! – was solved. Not one single issue.

Now Cooper's forming another group, hand picked by him and without any power to do anything, and this new group is going to take care of any problems with GF&P personnel. Yeah, right. Don't hold your breath.

Cooper has heard complaints from landowners about his employees a multitude of times and, as I mentioned above, they are all still in the areas where they were causing the problems. What should we believe that this time things will be different?
 
Liberty Bell,

I should stay out of this, but I'm not sure why you are so concerned with verifying that a trapper has his permission slips signed?

As a landowner you KNOW if the trapper has permission to be on YOUR land. Surely your neighbors all know the same regarding their ranch.

Isnt that all that matters?

Why the need to know the business of others.

Seems to me that regardless if the trappers sends his slips to his supervisor or keeps them himself, he would have to produce them if there was ever a question regarding trespass etc..

JW
 
You are absolutely right. It's the double standard thing that burns me. One of our predator control pilots can be grounded if he is caught hunting on my land if he doesn't have one of those permission slips signed, even though I was the one who called him to take care of my predators and he hadn't had time to get one signed.

The whole permission slip deal is a pretty minor issue compared to the Open Fields Doctrine, but it is just another example of the double standard and double talk we have come to expect from GF&P.
 
But in reading SH's posts, I was under the impression that as a state trapper he too has to have signed permission slips for anyone he works on or flys.

Aren't the state trappers required to have permission slips for the land "their" private pilots hunt, the same as this JJ fellow you use?

I must be missing something in this whole debate, because if the above is true, I fail to see where theres a double standard.

Just my opinion, and I'm probably wrong

thanks

JW
 
JJ has to have his permission slips in the hands of those in Pierre before he can fly. He can't just have them in his pocket.
 
Josey: "But in reading SH's posts, I was under the impression that as a state trapper he too has to have signed permission slips for anyone he works on or flys.

Aren't the state trappers required to have permission slips for the land "their" private pilots hunt, the same as this JJ fellow you use?"

The GF&P contract pilots are treated totally different than the private permitted predator pilots hired by the predator control boards. GF&P answers to no one and is accountable to none. The privately permitted pilots, hired by the landowners who tax themselves to pay for the predator control, have all sorts of hoops they are required to jump through. Just one more example of GF&P's double standard.
 
Thanks SJ, I see your point. But I dont think its a valid one.

I dont know this JJ fellow but from what I've read here, wasnt he convicted of violating some federal laws? Also as I understand it he does not work under the "control" or "guidance" of a game dept. employee, correct?

If thats the case it certainly doesnt seem unreasonable to me that the state would require some sort of verification of his permissions prior to allowing him to hunt.

Truth is, it sounds to me like he's very lucky to be flying at all! It seems to me like your state game dept has bent over backwards to allow your man to continue to fly. I've heard that in the past other pilots have lost their hunting rights and even their plane for similar violations. Looks to me as if there is indeed a double standard here......and this JJ and your predator district are the beneficiaries of it.

Thanks
 
OK thanks Liberty.

I really dont have a dog in this hunt but do find the debate interesting. As I stated in an earler post I think it helps in a discussion to listen to others instead of just defending my own position.

You say the GFP pilots are treated differently, How? Are they not required to have permission? I find it hard to believe that the state can hunt coyotes anywhere they want.

If your game dept is the agency in control of aireal hunting in the state dont you agree that they would have to have some sort of controls inplace for pilots that are not operating under the direct control or "supervision" of a dept. employee? frankly I find it suprising that they even allow any private pilot to hunt other than on a "by request" basis of the trapper or employee in charge of the area.

Does the dept allow this in all predator districts or just yours? Can other private pilots, in other areas of the state just go hunt whenever a rancher call them?
 

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