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The North American Cattle Men's Association

I don't want to fight with you, Murgen, but here's the deal; The US and Canada both had a policy of closing borders to BSE countries. This policy was based on protecting our herds and consumers alike. The US applied this policy evenly when 22 countries were found to be BSE positive and there was no push from the USDA or AMI to change policy. When #23 was discovered (Canada), suddenly the policy needed to be changed. Why? Was Canada's a lesser strain, maybe the 24 hour BSE? Was Canada's an imported case? NO. It was money. It was big packer's money and big money gets what they want. Now you tell me what I have posted that is inaccurate so far.

The USDA's abrupt reversal of policy has shown that they will do what they can to protect the profits of big business, even if it is at the expense of producers and/or consumers. That's wrong.

You can talk about SRM removal and all that, but there are countries who's BSE efforts are much greater than Canada's or the US's, and neither one of us are taking their product. I guess we're not supposed to notice that.

It was big packer's money who got what they wanted to the detriment of US cattlemen with the USDA's denial of private testing. Not based on sound science? Give me a break. Again, the USDA protecting the big money's interests.

Murgen, what the USDA/AMI are doing is wrong. Big money is steamrolling the little guy. It's wrong. It's happening up there to you guys and it's just as wrong. I joined R-CALF because they're standing up and hollering "foul". The other so-called cattleman's org. will raise an objection here and there, but when bets are being called, side with the big boys.

Look at the Canada border deal. R-CALF could of went the way of the NCBA and not object. However, that would be giving approval for the USDA to reverse health based policy for economic reasons ( layman's terms; sell out). That's not what you want the outfit responsible for maintaining health standards to get in the habit of doing. Here they are, damned if they do, damned if they don't. For their efforts, they're labeled protectionist and isolationists.

Maybe they got a little more vocal about your beef than they should of. When you're playing against a stacked deck, you do things you would rather not. I'm still dang proud to be a R-CALF member. If you choose to condemn me for siding with an outfit who is trying to keep producers profitable, then hang me because I'm guilty by association and perspective. I don't see any better choice.
 
Sandman: "The US and Canada both had a policy of closing borders to BSE countries. This policy was based on protecting our herds and consumers alike. The US applied this policy evenly when 22 countries were found to be BSE positive and there was no push from the USDA or AMI to change policy. When #23 was discovered (Canada), suddenly the policy needed to be changed. Why? Was Canada's a lesser strain, maybe the 24 hour BSE? Was Canada's an imported case? NO. It was money. It was big packer's money and big money gets what they want. Now you tell me what I have posted that is inaccurate so far."
Click to expand...

I'd be happy to point out all the things that are wrong with your twisted logic AGAIN SANDMAN.

First, not every country has the same degree of BSE problems. Only a complete idiot would not recognize that fact.

Second, every country's actions to rid themselves of BSE and to assure the safety of their product must be considered seperately. You don't just paint with a broad brush unless you hypocrites are willing to suggest that Japan and South Korea should set these exact same standards towards the U.S. that you want to set against Canada.

I know, I know, deceptive testing, deceptive testing.

Should that same argument apply to Canada?

YOU CAN'T HAVE IT ALL WAYS!!!!!

Using your ridiculous logic, if a country has a huge epidemic of BSE and has not taken the same precautionary measures we have, they should be treated the same as a country that has a small BSE problem and has taken every BSE precautionary measure available.

HOW STUPID CAN ANYONE BE TO TREAT EVERY SITUATION THE SAME???? Oh, never mind, forgot who I was talking to.

You lying R-CULTers say that Canadian beef is unsafe because they have BSE in their native herd. THE U.S. HAS BSE IN THEIR NATIVE HERD AND THE BSE PRECAUTIONARY MEASURES CANADA HAS TAKEN ARE EVEN MORE STRINGENT THAN OURS.

How can you phonies justify that? YOU CAN'T! YOU CONVINCE YOURSELVES THAT YOU CAN WITH YOUR SPIN ON THE NUMBER OF BSE CASES OR THE COW THAT WAS POSITIVE DURING THE FEED BAN PHASE OUT OR THE FEATHERS AND MOUSE DROPPINGS IN THE CANADIAN FEED SOME OF WHICH CAME FROM THE U.S.

Any lying, decpetive, slithering, slimy means you can use to cleanse your guilty consciences. That's you R-CULTers!


Sandman: "The USDA's abrupt reversal of policy has shown that they will do what they can to protect the profits of big business, even if it is at the expense of producers and/or consumers. That's wrong."
Click to expand...

Sandman: "It was big packer's money who got what they wanted to the detriment of US cattlemen with the USDA's denial of private testing. Not based on sound science? Give me a break. Again, the USDA protecting the big money's interests."
Click to expand...

Another bullsh*t argument!

"BWAME DA PACKAH"!

No further proof is needed than the fact that AMI sued USDA for not allowing the importation of OTM cattle. Are we importing OTM cattle Sandman? NO WE ARE NOT! Another phony argument shot down in flames.

The USDA considers the facts, not the isolationist's hypocritical rhetoric or the AMI's bias.

You seem to forget that the consumer has an opinion on imports too and would also influence USDA's decision.

BWAME USDA!


Sandman: "You can talk about SRM removal and all that, but there are countries who's BSE efforts are much greater than Canada's or the US's, and neither one of us are taking their product. I guess we're not supposed to notice that."
Click to expand...

So how long should Japan and South Korea wait before they take our exports? I guess we're not supposed to consider that.


Sandman: "If you choose to condemn me for siding with an outfit who is trying to keep producers profitable, then hang me because I'm guilty by association and perspective."
Click to expand...

"TRYING" is right!

Even steers can try!

Taking a stand that having BSE in your native herd means your beef is "high risk" is keeping producers profitable? If the media would have seen R-CULT as a credible source of information on BSE our beef demand would have tanked. KEEPING PRODUCERS PROFITABLE???

Supporting a flawed, unenforceable law that segregates 5% of the beef as a novelty item at the expense of labeling all beef is supposed to KEEP PRODUCERS PROFITABLE????

Supporting a flawed captive supply reform act that prohibits packers from bidding on feeder cattle is KEEPING PRODUCERS PROFITABLE????

R-CULT is tying a brick to the leg of every cattle producer and throwing them off a bridge into a river with their ignorance on the issues they support.

Japan and South Korea sit there looking at R-CULT take a stand that having BSE in your native herd means your beef is contaminated SO WE TAKE LESS FOR OUR CATTLE BECAUSE OF R-CULT'S IGNORANCE.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF R-CULT'S MISGUIDED EFFORTS ARE HURTING THE U.S. CATTLEMEN!


~SH~
 
Sandhusker said:
Maybe they got a little more vocal about your beef than they should of. When you're playing against a stacked deck, you do things you would rather not. I'm still dang proud to be a R-CALF member. If you choose to condemn me for siding with an outfit who is trying to keep producers profitable, then hang me because I'm guilty by association and perspective. I don't see any better choice.
Click to expand...



Funny how finding out that you're living in a glass house will bring out the confessions. What we were trying to tell you r-calfers all along is that you were (AND STILL ARE) putting profits ahead of principle. Where else are you doing this? Better take a look yourself before we have to point that out to you, too.
 
SH, "I'd be happy to point out all the things that are wrong with your twisted logic AGAIN SANDMAN. First, not every country has the same degree of BSE problems. Only a complete idiot would not recognize that fact."

Fine, SH. Kindly point out how the USDA recognized this and treated other counties differently based on their degree of BSE problems, prior to Canada of course. Only a complete idiot would make a statement like you did without being able to show varying degrees of BSE infectivity and the corresponding varying degrees of how they were treated.

SH, "Second, every country's actions to rid themselves of BSE and to assure the safety of their product must be considered seperately. You don't just paint with a broad brush unless you hypocrites are willing to suggest that Japan and South Korea should set these exact same standards towards the U.S. that you want to set against Canada."

That's why I mentioned other countries who's actions to assure the safety of their product is much more intensive than Canada's - and our border is still closed to them. Didn't know you agreed with me, did you?

Japan and Korea should be able do as they see fit - they are sovereign nations.

SH, "HOW STUPID CAN ANYONE BE TO TREAT EVERY SITUATION THE SAME???? Oh, never mind, forgot who I was talking to."

Did you forget that, prior to Canada, the USDA treated every country's BSE situation the same? (Closed Border). Was that stupid as well?
 
SH
First, not every country has the same degree of BSE problems. Only a complete idiot would not recognize that fact.
Click to expand...

BUT if they take out the SRM's I thought it was safe? hmmm
 
Sandhusker have you ever stop to think that just maybe the USDA was trying to get a few import /export policies in place so you wouldn't be punished for being a minimal risk country yourself? You seem to think they only did it because Canada had BSE, maybe they did it as they were smart enough to realize it was only a matter of time and BSE would be found in the US. Hell, maybe they knew it was in the US and were hoping to control the damage the old import/export policies would have caused on the US. in any case they were smart enough to realize that if you want to sell your beef you can't be seen punishing a country that is a twin to you in everyway including risk. :roll:
Can you please tell us just how many of these other countries had precautionary measures in place when BSE was found? And how many of these countries mirrored the US system to a stricter degree? How many of them freely traded live cattle and feed to the tune of millions of dollars worth a year? Just take a wild guess Sandhusker. :wink:
 
Do I think the USDA might of had a far-reaching master plan? Let's step back and take a look...... confusion on whether the Washington cow was a downer or not..... the first Texas cow that "fell thru the cracks"..... the second Texas cow Fong had to get straightened out..... the "sound science" denial.... announcing false positives....... telling a sovereign nation they must change their laws so they can take US product...... Have I forgotten anything? No, Tam, I'd say this outfit is incapable of planning anything past what kind of donuts will be at the next staff meeting.

Your questions on the countries? How about the obvious answer - money. What is this world-wide trade deal based on? It's not peace, the environment, safety, etc... - it's money.When England, France, etal were found to have it, no big deal. We didn't do much beef trading with them. Wasn't but a penny in the AMI's pockets. But Canada, whoa Nellie! It's money, Tam.
 
Sandhusker said:
Do I think the USDA might of had a far-reaching master plan? Let's step back and take a look...... confusion on whether the Washington cow was a downer or not..... the first Texas cow that "fell thru the cracks"..... the second Texas cow Fong had to get straightened out..... the "sound science" denial.... announcing false positives....... telling a sovereign nation they must change their laws so they can take US product...... Have I forgotten anything? No, Tam, I'd say this outfit is incapable of planning anything past what kind of donuts will be at the next staff meeting.

Your questions on the countries? How about the obvious answer - money. What is this world-wide trade deal based on? It's not peace, the environment, safety, etc... - it's money.When England, France, etal were found to have it, no big deal. We didn't do much beef trading with them. Wasn't but a penny in the AMI's pockets. But Canada, whoa Nellie! It's money, Tam.
Click to expand...

As far as what the USDA knows they at least know more than R-CALF about trade they know you can expect another country to take your beef if you are accusing a country that mirrors you in everyway of having tainted unsafe Genuine risk of death beef. Just how much beef do you think you could sell them if they believed R-CALF? That puts the USDA far ahead of Leo and the rest of his followers.
Why is it you can't answer a direct question without a twist. I asked how many of those other countries had precautionary measures in place before BSE was found. And did any of them mirror the US?
I'm glad to see you admit you don't know what the testing capabilities in the US are but you seem to think the US should test every animal even if they can't do it. Just speed that testing process up so the labs are over worked and really foul things up. I'm sure Japan will understand if their are a few miss read test results because there aren't enough people to do the job right. Look at the mess they have already made and you think they should beable to reliably test thousands more a day. Man are you looking for a real disaster. I would rather the did the OIE recommended testing and get it right as to take a chance on testing everything and really screwing things up.
 
Creekstone did not plan to "overload" the USDA testing labs. Their techs were to be sent to Europe for schooling and USDA approved. The OIE does not mandate government testing. The Swiss use private companies at much less cost.
DATE: April 13, 2004

TO:
Undersecretary J.B. Penn
United States Department of Agriculture
Email: [email protected].

Undersecretary Bill Hawks
United States Department of Agriculture
Email: [email protected].

Chief of Staff Dale Moore
United States Department of Agriculture
Email: [email protected].

CC:
Secretary Ann Veneman
Secretary of Agriculture
United States Department of Agriculture
Email: [email protected]

FROM:
John Stewart, C.E.O.
Creekstone Farms Premium Beef
Office: (303) 255-9200
Email: [email protected]

Bill Fielding, C.O.O.
Creekstone Farms Premium Beef
Office: (620) 741-3100
Email: [email protected]

SUBJECT: RESPONSE TO USDA
On behalf of Creekstone Farms I want to thank you for the opportunity to have met with you in Washington, D.C. last Thursday, April 8. We had hoped for a different outcome to the meeting, however, and are very disappointed with USDA's decision not to allow Creekstone Farms to voluntarily test all of the cattle we process for bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE). As we have discussed in the various meetings held with the USDA over the past several weeks, BSE testing of our cattle is something our export customers and consumers are asking for, and we feel we should be able to provide it to them.

Creekstone Farms will challenge the USDA's decision, and are currently analyzing our legal options. We are challenging USDA's authority to control the sales of BSE diagnostic tests in the United States and your decision to prohibit companies like Creekstone Farms from conducting 100% testing of young animals that would meet our customers' needs and requirements.

We are hopeful there will be a resolution to the current U.S. beef trade embargo with Japan. It is imperative to companies such as ours that trade be resumed. However, we understand the position of our Japanese customers, consumers and their government, as well as the challenges their staunch positions represent. They are requesting 100% testing of all beef bound for their market as the precursor to the resumption of trade. The USDA's current plan to test only older U.S. cattle for BSE will not meet this requirement. On Monday, Japanese Vice Agriculture Minister Mamoru Ishihara announced that the "U.S. government's decision not to accept [Creekstone's] offer is, frankly speaking, regrettable."

Creesktone Farms has received a tremendous amount of support during the past few weeks for our proposal to test all of our cattle for BSE. We will continue to work with our senators and congressmen, as well as industry experts, to help find a solution to this recent USDA decision. Please understand our situation as well as our consternation over why the USDA will not embrace our plan. Creekstone Farms plans to test more cattle than the USDA, at a lower cost. If our plan were to be implemented, we would test over 300,000 head of cattle over the course of a year, versus the USDA proposed cattle population of approximately 220,000 head. As well, the USDA is planning on spending a minimum of $72 million of taxpayer money to conduct these tests. The Creekstone Farms' plan will cost less than $6 million using the identical test kit, and our customers are willing to pay for the cost of the testing.
 
Tam, I have never said we should test every animal, and neither did the Japanese. I simply say that anybody should be allowed to test.

Tam, "Why is it you can't answer a direct question without a twist. I asked how many of those other countries had precautionary measures in place before BSE was found. And did any of them mirror the US? "

You asked me how many we could test and I answered "I don't know" - not much of a twist there. I didn't addess your question about the other countries precautionary measures because it didn't matter to the USDA - if they were going to use that excuse they would of brought it up, and they didn't. Why even talk about it when the obvious answer is "money". It's also obvious you are just searching for a reason or you would of backed your statement with something other than a hypothetical question.
 
Sandman,

Two questions for you to dance around:


1. Are you suggesting that Canadian beef and live cattle imports pose as big a threat as beef and live cattle imports from the UK?

Yes Canadian imports pose as big a threat as UK imports.

No Canadian imports do not pose as big a threat as UK imports.


2. Since we now have BSE in our native herd, do you honestly believe that Japan and South Korea would not be influenced by R-CULT's actions towards Canada?

Yes you believe Japan and South Korea are influenced by our actions against Canada.

No you do not believe Japan and South Korea are influenced by our actions against Canada.


No divertionary statements please!


~SH~
 
~SH~ said:
Sandman,

Two questions for you to dance around:


1. Are you suggesting that Canadian beef and live cattle imports pose as big a threat as beef and live cattle imports from the UK?

Yes Canadian imports pose as big a threat as UK imports.

No Canadian imports do not pose as big a threat as UK imports.


2. Since we now have BSE in our native herd, do you honestly believe that Japan and South Korea would not be influenced by R-CULT's actions towards Canada?

Yes you believe Japan and South Korea are influenced by our actions against Canada.

No you do not believe Japan and South Korea are influenced by our actions against Canada.

No divertionary statements please!


~SH~
Click to expand...



I can see you comming around sh,slowly but surely...........good luck
 
Hayseed,

What is your point besides the point under your pointed hat?

"Our actions" should be clearly understood as the actions the U.S. takes against Canada which are seen by Japan and South Korea.

I didn't say I supported those actions.



~SH~
 
~SH~ said:
Sandman,

Two questions for you to dance around:


1. Are you suggesting that Canadian beef and live cattle imports pose as big a threat as beef and live cattle imports from the UK?

Yes Canadian imports pose as big a threat as UK imports.

No Canadian imports do not pose as big a threat as UK imports.

Reply, YES. As we've seen from the Washington cow, it only takes one.

2. Since we now have BSE in our native herd, do you honestly believe that Japan and South Korea would not be influenced by R-CULT's actions towards Canada?

Yes you believe Japan and South Korea are influenced by our actions against Canada.

No you do not believe Japan and South Korea are influenced by our actions against Canada.

Reply, NO. Japan and South Korea will do whatever is in their best interests, as any country will, regardless of what a US trade organization has to say. If you want to worry about influtential factors, you had better get on the USDA - they desperately need to get their testing poop in a group

No divertionary statements please!

Reply, I did what you asked. Please remember this and kindly reciptrocte whan asked.

~SH~
Click to expand...
 
Sandhusker said:
~SH~ said:
Sandman,

Two questions for you to dance around:


1. Are you suggesting that Canadian beef and live cattle imports pose as big a threat as beef and live cattle imports from the UK?

Yes Canadian imports pose as big a threat as UK imports.

No Canadian imports do not pose as big a threat as UK imports.

YES I say this because, judging from the Washington cow, it only takes one. Kinda throws water on your "everybody should be treated differently" theory, doesn't it? Maybe they should be, but clearly they are not.

2. Since we now have BSE in our native herd, do you honestly believe that Japan and South Korea would not be influenced by R-CULT's actions towards Canada?

Yes you believe Japan and South Korea are influenced by our actions against Canada.

No you do not believe Japan and South Korea are influenced by our actions against Canada.

NO Japan and South Korea will do whatever is in their best interests regardless of what any US trade organization has to say.

No divertionary statements please!

I did what you asked. Please remember this and kindly reciptrocte whan asked.

~SH~
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Porker: "Sandhusker,SH will have to dig deep to answer those questions!! Hell he will use the word MAYBE_MAYBE -NOT."
Click to expand...

Porker, why would I answer my own questions?

Why don't you stick to your SSI promotion ads instead of trying to be a cheerleader for Sandman.


Sandman,

Why don't you decide what your motive for keeping the Canadian border closed is going to be?

One day it's protection of our market and the next day it's the food safety argument.

That's the problem with hypocrites like you, you can't keep your arguments straight.


Remember this....................


SH: "What's wrong with the U.S. market for Canadian beef?"
Click to expand...

Here was your response...........

Sandman: "What a totally assinine thing for a US cattle producer to say.

Imagine the following;
Ford dealership owner, "What's wrong with the US market for Japanese cars?"

Boeing Executive, "What's wrong with the US market for Airbus?"

Compaq CEO, "What's wrong with the US market for Japanese chips?"

US farmer, "What's wrong with the US market for Brazilian beans?"

Target store owner, "What's wrong with Walmart for US shoppers?"

Good grief!"
Click to expand...

Even though my above statement was from a Canadian producer's perspective, once again you expose your hypocritical self as you try to cleanse your conscience with your "this has nothing to do with the Canadian producer" rhetoric.

I could follow hypocrites like you around all day and point out your hypocrisy.

The truth is, from R-CULT's perspective, this has nothing to do with food safety and has everything to do with protecting our markets from Canadian cattle.

Why not admit it?

Why try to divert to food safety?

The end (stopping Canadian live cattle imports) clearly justifies the means (lying about the safety of Canadian beef).

You are totally comfortable to hurt all Canadian producers financially to a large degree for U.S. producers to benefit to a small degree.

You plainly admitted it was about competition in your above rant. You can't deny it now.

You are such a pathetic little man!



~SH~
 
Here's a little poem HayStack!!!

Be careful of the words you say.
Just keep them soft and sweet.
You never know from day to day.
Which ones you have to eat.

Start eating my sensitive little Texas rose-R-Calf asking Canadians to forgive is like asking a rape victim to go out on a second date. You lied-you got caught-now be a man and admit it-you quite honestly remind me of a grey haired three ytear old caught in a lie-just lie some more or blame somebody else. The good things about three year olds is they grow out of such behavior-you obviously haven't.
 
Northern Rancher said:
Here's a little poem HayStack!!!

Be careful of the words you say.
Just keep them soft and sweet.
You never know from day to day.
Which ones you have to eat.

Start eating my sensitive little Texas rose-R-Calf asking Canadians to forgive is like asking a rape victim to go out on a second date. You lied-you got caught-now be a man and admit it-you quite honestly remind me of a grey haired three ytear old caught in a lie-just lie some more or blame somebody else. The good things about three year olds is they grow out of such behavior-you obviously haven't.
Click to expand...

Well then be bitter like Miss Tam,carry your bitterness to your grave,I dont care,but remember this, you and Miss Tam are in the minority,I dont think all canadian cattle men are that dumb,and I will say this again,I have stated on this forum and others including agri-ville I am neutral in the border dispute,but I think in all fairness border should have remained closed till we regained our exports,read any thing you want to into that cause thats the facts,now go pester some one else...........good luck
 

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