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Tony and some legislator.

Passin thru I think you miss the point that hunters have paid that additional fee as well. In increased license fees in many states and add on fees at the license end. If you look at license fees in many states in the last 10 years they have all increased and a big portion goes to aid programs for public access, it is spread across the board making the dollar amount easier on everyone.

How many hunters would pay 150.00 or more to access public grounds to hunt pheasants each day? What would happen to any hunter numbers if the states did that? Also you would then have many private paid to hunt outfits crying fowl in many states, that a state entity shouldn't be competing with private sector if you had a major fee to hunt public lands, but take the shear numbers times the dollar amount increases and states have a dollar pool to work with for access rights that simple. More and more of public access will be the forefront of many game depts in the years to come, access must be realistic or hunter numbers will drop even more simple facts don't care what state your in.
 
If hunters pay an additional fee for hunting over a standard liscence you are right. In my state there is an additional fee for some specific state walk in hunting. Then there is some state land that there is no additional fee..........if it is not designated as walk in hunting.

As sad as it is hunters might have to end up paying 150 or so. Can't say I like it as I want to keep as many youngster hunting as possible. In order to keep hunting and our gun rights we need new young hunters. That is the thing I do not like about this thread it is pitting rural folks against each other when we need to be allies.
On the costs of hunting. I think hunter will have to pay what the actual costs of hunting , just as a rancher has to pay for caking cattle he has to pay no matter the cost.

The other thing is, hunters have always gotten to hunt on private land and most times at no cost. That is the way I like it. But if you see the hunters and rural people at each others throats that will change. So that friendship needs to remain. The other thing that will dictate fee hunting on private land is the rural economy, if the rural people can survive they will not charge as a rule. But if things get tough they may be forced to charge, and I think you are seeing some of it today. Sure there are jerks that are rural people just as there are jerk hunters but we can not get into a bidding war against each other trying to see who has the biggest jerks.

In speaking of Mr. Dean and watching his writings, I firmly believe he is not utilizing the frienship of rural folks and hunters. I believe he is alienating the two.............and in this case everyone loses. I am not going to stand by and have hunters or other come on this site and try and pick a fight. I will fight back, however if they want to discuss issues that will work. I did not go and attack Mr. Dean and I expect the same courtesy on this site.
 
LB...If you would read my post again I guess you and Tony both need to hone your reading skills, I said open fields allows law enforcement to enter private property it does not allow them to search your house or curtiledge which is protected by the Constituition , no where did I say open fields was in the Constituition.
Open Fields is based on case law and supported by yours and my Supreme Court, which makes it legal, until challenged and overturned, unless you do not beleive in our justice system?
Your Sheriff or police only have to have probable cause to enter your property, they still need to get a search warrant to search your house or curtiledge just as GF&P. The probabale cause given to CO to enter for compliance is the act of hunting.
When you purchase a hunting license in SD you give up the right and must display it to whomever demands, when you are participating in hunting you open yourself up to being checked for the proper license snd within the legal bag limits established by the Commission or the Legislature.
 
publichunter: LB...If you would read my post again I guess you and Tony both need to hone your reading skills, I said open fields allows law enforcement to enter private property it does not allow them to search your house or curtiledge which is protected by the Constituition , no where did I say open fields was in the Constituition.
Maybe it is your writing skills that need to be honed?

You just said that Open Fields is protected by the constitution. Read this again.
publichunter: Open fields is not profiling, it is the ability of law enforcement to enter private property, (not your curtledge, which is your home) and is protected by the Constituition, it allows all law enforcement to see and enter your private property

Open Fields is based on case law and supported by yours and my Supreme Court, which makes it legal, until challenged and overturned, unless you do not beleive in our justice system?
I have lots of faith in our justice system. I repeat - Open Fields has NEVER been supported by the Supreme Court. I challenge you to prove that one!!

Your Sheriff or police only have to have probable cause to enter your property, they still need to get a search warrant to search your house or curtiledge just as GF&P. The probabale cause given to CO to enter for compliance is the act of hunting.
Hunting is a crime?

"Probable cause" means that the law enforcement officer has reason to believe that there has been a crime committed and I still don't think that a hunter is guilty of a crime just because he is walking across my pasture, wearing orange and carrying a gun during hunting season, do you?

When you purchase a hunting license in SD you give up the right and must display it to whomever demands, when you are participating in hunting you open yourself up to being checked for the proper license snd within the legal bag limits established by the Commission or the Legislature.
Yes, the hunter has given GF&P or anyone else the right to check his license. The landowner has NOT given permission to GF&P or anyone else to trespass on his private property to check to see if that hunter on his land has the proper license and is hunting in the right unit. That's the problem!

Evidently landowners trust hunters much more than GF&P does, but hunters with attitudes like yours make us wonder if that trust is justified.
 
ok ok LB you got me my writing at times does not reflect what my mind is saying.....


Open Fields doctrine gives up your right as a landowner to stop law enforcement and open fields allows Any law enforcement person onto your "open Fields" to do their enforcement which is compliance checks.

Hunting is not a crime, neither is checking your license or your limits while hunting and making sure that the game that is owned by the public and held in trust by the "public Trust" is being legally taken by proper firearms, and obeying laws and rules set forth by you and the Legisture and the GF&P Commission that the Leg has given the power to make rules.and the legal bag limits.

LB the legal definition I came up for Open Fields; PLease read the first line of the 3rd paragraph

The open fields doctrine is a U.S. legal doctrine created judicially for purposes of evaluating claims of an unreasonable search by the government in violation of the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, which states:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The open fields doctrine was first articulated by the U.S. Supreme Court in Hester v. United States[1], which stated that "the special protection accorded by the Fourth Amendment to the people in their 'persons, houses, papers, and effects,' is not extended to the open fields."[2] This opinion appears to be decided on the basis that "open fields are not a "constitutionally protected area" because they cannot be construed as "persons, houses, papers, [or] effects."

This method of reasoning gave way with the arrival of the landmark case Katz v. U.S.,[3] which established a two-part test for what constitutes a search within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment. The relevant criteria are "first that a person have exhibited an actual (subjective) expectation of privacy and, second, that the expectation be one that society is prepared to recognize as reasonable."[4] Under this "new" analysis of the Fourth Amendment, privacy expectations deemed unreasonable by society cannot be validated by any steps taken by the defendant to shield the area from view.

In Oliver v. United States[5], the Supreme Court held that a privacy expectation regarding an open field is unreasonable:

…open fields do not provide the setting for those intimate activities that the Amendment is intended to shelter from government interference or surveillance. There is no societal interest in protecting the privacy of those activities, such as the cultivation of crops, that occur in open fields. [6]

Courts have continuously held that entry into an open field--whether trespass or not--is not a search within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment. No matter what steps a person takes, he or she cannot create a reasonable privacy expectation in an open field, because it is an area incapable of supporting an expectation of privacy as a matter of constitutional law.


[edit] Distinguishing open fields from curtilage
While open fields are not be protected by the Fourth Amendment, the curtilage, or outdoor area immediately surrounding the home, is. Courts have treated this area as an extension of the house and as such subject to all the privacy protections afforded a person's home (unlike a person's open fields) under the Fourth Amendment.

An area is curtilage if it "harbors the intimate activity associated with the sanctity of a man's home and the privacies of life."[7] Courts make this determination by examining "whether the area is included within an enclosure surrounding the home, the nature of the uses to which the area is put, and the steps taken by the resident to protect the area from observation by people passing by."[8] Theoretically, many structures might extend the curtilage protection to the areas immediately surrounding them. The courts have gone so far as to treat a tent as a home for Fourth Amendment purposes in the past. [9][10][11] It is possible that the area immediately surrounding a tent (or any structure used as a home) might be considered curtilage.

Despite this rather broad interpretation of curtilage, the courts seem willing to find areas to be outside of the curtilage if they are in any way separate from the home (by a fence, great distance, other structures, even certain plants).[12]


[edit] References
^ Hester v. U.S., 265 U.S. 57 (1924)
^ Hester v. U.S., 265 U.S. 57, 57 (1924)
^ Katz v. U.S., 389 U.S. 347 (1967)
^ Katz v. U.S., 389 U.S. 347, 361 (1967)
^ Oliver v. U.S., 466 U.S. 170 (1984)
^ Oliver v. U.S., 466 U.S. 170, 179 (1984)
^ United States v. Dunn, 480 U.S. 294, 300 (1987)
^ United States v. Dunn, 480 U.S. 294, 301 (1987)
^ United States v. Gooch, 6 F.3d 673 (9th Cir. 1993)
^ LaDuke v. Nelson, 762 F.2d 1318 (9th Cir. 1985)
^ LaDuke v. Castillo, 455 F.Supp. (E.D. Wash. 1978)
^ U.S. v. Hatch, 931 F.2d 1478 (11th Cir.), cert. denied, 502 U.S. 883 (1991)
 
Passin......i dont believe in ALOT of what Dean says.....im not in the same boat as him in global warming, or what his views of our president are. However, i do feel he is right on when it comes to open fields, plowing of the prairie, public lands etc. Mr Dean iprobably has more farmer friends than other friends.
 
Open Fields doctrine gives up your right as a landowner to stop law enforcement and open fields allows Any law enforcement person onto your "open Fields" to do their enforcement which is compliance checks.
No, the Open Fields Doctrine assumes that I have given up my rights. I haven't.

GF&P has declared that they have the "right" to trespass on my private land to do compliance checks on YOU and since I and a whole lot of other landowners don't agree with that assessment, we have locked our land to hunting to prevent abuse of our property rights by GF&P.

For the most part, hunters understand trespass. GF&P doesn't.


Hunting is not a crime, neither is checking your license or your limits while hunting and making sure that the game that is owned by the public and held in trust by the "public Trust" is being legally taken by proper firearms, and obeying laws and rules set forth by you and the Legisture and the GF&P Commission that the Leg has given the power to make rules.and the legal bag limits.
I'm glad we agree on this one.

LB the legal definition I came up for Open Fields; PLease read the first line of the 3rd paragraph
PH, if you check the cases you listed, every one of them involved illegal drugs and evidence seen by accident while investigating a crime committed by the owner of the property, not by some poor hunter who was conducting a lawful hunt on land he was granted permission to hunt.

Now, we just agreed that hunting is NOT a crime and that the investigation of hunters is a legitimate function of GF&P. If the law enforcement officers in these cases had seen a hunter committing a crime then, yes, they would have been able to use probable cause to arrest the hunter even if he was hunting on someone else's land.

This is what probable cause means: that if a law enforcement officer has reason to believe a crime has been committed, it allows the law enforcement officer to enforce the law.

However, trespassing on MY private property to investigate YOUR hunting practices, when the CO has no reason to suspect you've done anything illegal, is NOT a legitimate function of any law enforcement agency, especially one that was set up specifically to manage wildlife.

If the law enforcement officer drives out across my pastures to do a compliance check on a legitimate hunter when he has no reason to suspect the hunter might be breaking the law, that is trespass and has NEVER been approved by any court.

If any game warden was ever stupid enough to try this on my land, he would have been taken to court and I'm fairly certain we would no longer be fighting this battle because if it were tested in South Dakota, the courts would throw out the Open Fields Doctrine as they have in other states.
 
Passin thru, tell me what the cost of hunting is? How much are pheasants worth? Deer? Turkeys? Squirrels,Rabbitts? etc. What is that magical dollar figure per species- per day? Who set's these figures to have the opportunity to hunt? Hunting will end if all becomes a pay as you go and pay at every turn for the hunter, as you stated the young with all the technology they have today, it is tough enough to get them envolved in the outdoors, yet expect them to pay as you go.
Hunters do a great service for all citizens and they do it at a much smaller cost, I'm telling you the day it comes to a state controlling all wildlife or a big majority there will be a price to pay from all tax payers, without hunters there is no other way around that! Lost revenue of farmers and ranchers from livestock and grain/land depredation of ungulates will be far greater than the revenue generated from 6-12 pay hunters per property by far! You will see a dramatic increase in the grocery stores for sure!

LB: In response to your rhetoric on Open fields, I believe your state and many others allow a hunter the right to go onto private ground where small game has expired without the consent of the landowner correct? Why is that? Because No one entity owns wildlife it is owned by all and managed by Federal and state wildlife agencies. It is a living -moving resource and that is why CO"s are allowed to come onto private property to check license as they are in the act of hunting or pursuing public wildlife which seasons are set for! I have asked and rarely ever been denied access to retrieve wild game that has fallen onto private property but the law states I have the right with or without consent to retrieve game on private grounds, if I don't then I become a law breaker of wanton waste laws.
Some states go as far to allow unarmed retrieval of big game as well without landowner consent. What do you say to these laws? If your against them then how does one handle wanton waste laws in these cases? Each state decides a value of wildlife through their rules and regulations do they not LB? Large land tracts of the western US only compound the problem, again that is a factual claim. No one is guilty of anything untill they break the law, but again many states you must show a hunting/fishing license to anyone who ask to see it or you will be in trouble with the laws set forth!
LB did you know that in ND if you don't post your land it is then concidered ground that can be hunted without permission? Why does ND have that law? That is about as flagrant a property rights issue as one will find correct? Why hasn't a landowner took this to the high court in ND a slam dunk I would think correct? Becuase the people of the state spoke on that issue as well as people of your state have at some time spoke on the open fields issue.
The wildlife on your land is owned by all and to protect that resource for all! Your state has given the power of the agency who controls these matters the right to protect that wildlife on all grounds, part of that protection is to see that rules and regs are being followed, it doesn't start and stop with the actions of those people ,the main stay is that they all have a valid license for the game they pursue.
Tell me how many license checks you have heard of the most in 1 day on someones private property taking place? You have always talked abuse yet have nothing to back that up with? Those with power have the power to abuse, but it is not the norm rather a very small minority, and it doesn't matter if it is a CO, police, sheriff, judge or a boss! If an abuse issue is truly an issue those people aren't kept around long exspecialy in the public realm.
 
LB: In response to your rhetoric on Open fields, I believe your state and many others allow a hunter the right to go onto private ground where small game has expired without the consent of the landowner correct? Why is that? Because No one entity owns wildlife it is owned by all and managed by Federal and state wildlife agencies. It is a living -moving resource and that is why CO"s are allowed to come onto private property to check license as they are in the act of hunting or pursuing public wildlife which seasons are set for! I have asked and rarely ever been denied access to retrieve wild game that has fallen onto private property but the law states I have the right with or without consent to retrieve game on private grounds, if I don't then I become a law breaker of wanton waste laws.
Some states go as far to allow unarmed retrieval of big game as well without landowner consent. What do you say to these laws?
If the bird you shoot in the road ditch falls on my property and you come get it without asking my permission, you are trespassing no matter what game and fish says.

If I catch you, you will be arrested by our county sheriff. You'll get your chance to try and convince a jury in western South Dakota that you have the "right" to trespass on my private property.

The county sheriffs in every county in my five-county district take a dim view of trespassers and they don't think much of road hunters either. Good luck trying that stunt here.

As to the rest of your rant, figure those things out for yourself. Just remember to be on your best behavior when you come west river.
 
I am probably redundant but here goes.
Read the case law before you believe there was no probable cause /reasonable suspicion that a crime was being committed or that there was no on going investigation before they entered. Not one of these cases did law enforcement entered solely because of the color of a hat or a man carrying a gun.

Case law is just that case law. Most of the case law deals with moon shining, illegal betting and drug dealers.

You as the hunter signed that license and made that contract but I have not signed a contract. Most landowners would grant permission to enter. I believe it is a pretty small thing to expect them to ask permission. I am not a criminal and I don't believe most hunters are criminals. GF&P's interpretation/use of this open fields doctrine is wrong and it has never been tried in the courts. It gives their law enforcement the right to do whatever they want without any check or balances.

One hunter said this open fields doctrine doesn't affect me, so I don't care.

If you think that this open fields doctrine cannot affect you, you had better read a little more case law. I will say that most of the cases that involved a home or building were overturned but it still cost them a court case to find out.

If you want to be safe from the open fields doctrine you had better build your home without windows or doors, if you want you curtiledge to be safe you had better build a high wall and cover the top.


Maybe you should just read why the people of one state did away with the open fields doctrine. I think it was New York.
 
Sorry LB it hasn't held up well in other states. That said, I hope it does get tested in your state some day as if the hunter wins then your open fields view get's a little dimmer!
Remember LB it is not up to you if it get's taken to court but your states attorney. You could file a private damages suit, but criminal trespass is a codified law in states.


Here LB read this slowly, I'll dig up others when I have more time!

http://www.ag.state.nd.us/opinions/1998/Letter/98JONE01.pdf
 
I've posted this previously, but need to interrupt some ignorance again.

Open Fields Doctrine only addresses the admissability of evidence gathered illegally. There is no open fields right to trespass. Open Fields Doctrine merely states that in the event of evidence illegally gathered on open fields, the remedy is not exclusion or supression of illegally gathered evidence. There can exist an illegal activity by law enforcement, like trespass, and still the fruits of the criminal act are admissable. This is a legal distinction from evidence gathered from an illegal home invasion which would be supressed or excluded.

There is at least 1 court ruling encouraging civil redress against the criminal act of open fields trespass. You see, its not legal to trespass, but criminally gathered evidence in this case is admissable.

No enforcer of the law should be interested in breaking the law especially to write a game ticket. When an intentional trespass occurs, landowners should find out what a jury thinks their damages are worth. Certainly the cost of the environmental assesment should be included in the damages. It wouldn't take many of these suits before the pleasure of intentionally trespassing was eradicated.


Oh yeah, land is deeded and taxed to the middle of the road easement. There is a public good in using the easement to build and maintain a public road. Road hunting and pot growing and nude frolicing are beyond the scope of road service. SD is the only state I've heard of that still allows the road easements to be misused in this detrimental way.
 
Brad wrote: When an intentional trespass occurs, landowners should find out what a jury thinks their damages are worth. Certainly the cost of the environmental assessment should be included in the damages.

Then why hasn't anyone tried to sue your state government? Environmental impact for trespass? Your a real funny guy :roll: Then every time someone pounds a post, digs up untouched soils the same should be done? Your really asking to open a can of worms many would not want to travel down with impact statements for foot traffic or a vehicle, that is really your idea to get even?

As far as other states YES Brad there are others that allow road hunting so your not by yourself, and many states allow trapping in those ditches as well as they are public property, no different in a town where there is a public easement along every ones lot line and you have to be so many feet off it when you build anything.
 
Roadways are easements. The land in which these roadways were constructed was given for travel. The person that gave these easements in many instances still own the underlying land. An easement is a property right but I would have to question when this easement was given if it included hunting or if hunting is beyond the scope of the actual easement.

Like I said before easements/right of ways have two determining factors, dimension and scope.
 
You guys in SD need a law like we have-- No shooting from or across the roadway ROW....Take care of your problem......And does away with slob road hunters...
 
Oldtimer said:
You guys in SD need a law like we have-- No shooting from or across the roadway ROW....Take care of your problem......And does away with slob road hunters...
Same here oldtimer. If someone wants to drink beer and burn fuel, they should choose nascar as their sport instead of hunting. It's illegal in Arkansas.
 
Oldtimer said:
You guys in SD need a law like we have-- No shooting from or across the roadway ROW....Take care of your problem......And does away with slob road hunters...

That's the way it is in Nebraska, too.
 
LB and SJ put your money where your mouth is and challenge open fields in court you seem to think you are right, belly up to the bar and see if you take a licking over it.....
You can sit back and rant and rave and say things are this way or that way, so far open fields is here, it is used by CO it will continue to be used, Our Gov. supports it , our new Sec of GF&P supports it and the majority of the Legislature supports it.
Quit your complaining and challenge it in our court system......

Road hunting has been challenged to the Suoreme Court and they ruled that is is legal to shoot small game that originated in the ROW over the ROW or over private land. Our SD supreme Court supported that, the National Supreme Court would not take the case, so all of you can quit Bithing about Road Hunting it is legal in this state and will continue to be legal until the majority says it is no longer.
 
You road hunters need to get a job and quit trolling for road-kill day in and day out!!!! :roll: :roll: :roll:
 
Here ya go Stupid go Lucky:

"Brad wrote: When an intentional trespass occurs, landowners should find out what a jury thinks their damages are worth. Certainly the cost of the environmental assessment should be included in the damages.

Then why hasn't anyone tried to sue your state government? Environmental impact for trespass? Your a real funny guy Then every time someone pounds a post, digs up untouched soils the same should be done? Your really asking to open a can of worms many would not want to travel down with impact statements for foot traffic or a vehicle, that is really your idea to get even?"

Well Environmental impact statement (EIS) is a term of are that I never raised, but it would be a worthy assessment to determine if a trespasser propagated Spurge or ecoli scours or threw out beer cans.


As far as other states YES Brad there are others that allow road hunting so your not by yourself, and many states allow trapping in those ditches as well as they are public property, no different in a town where there is a public easement along every ones lot line and you have to be so many feet off it when you build anything.

I used to live in Kansas NO ROAD HUNTING
I now live in Nebraska. NO ROAD HUNTING
I've hunted in Ok & Tx NO ROAD HUNTING
Perhaps some allow road hunting besides SD, but your grasp on reality dosn't give me any cause to take your word for the...well anything.

The ditches/roadway are not public property, they are private property, even taxed upon which a road easement is exercized - are you dishonest or stupid to post such antitruth? Now a state and US highway is public property; do you roud hunt US highways?

There is a similarity between road easement and sidewalk easement and a decent hunter wouldn't hunt either place.
 

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