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Tony Dean apologizes?

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LB you are so smart arent you? In America many cases and actions are dependent on case law and previous decesions of Courts. Yes open fields does not specify "deer police" as you call them. If you do not consider SD Game Fish and Parks Conservation officers "legitimate Law enforcement" sounds like a personal problem and not one based on Statutes of which the fine Legislature of which you are supposedly a member passed and made them legitamate law enforcement. I know why dont you introduce a Bill to do away with their legitamacy? It will get as far as every other Bill you have tried to pass dealing with game issues.
 
I am pretty sure that deputies over in eastern SD along with DCI agents go looking for wild growing marijuana along alot of the river drainages and do not gain permission before doing so. Also the murder investigation that was conducted in the pierre area in 2006 was done with out gaining permission from landowners to look for evidence of the crime. Yes the law enforcment did know a crime was commited but did not know where.

Furthermore on the open fields doctrine, it is giving the option to any law enforcement officer to enter in an open field as long as they are working within the scope of their duties. Whether it be looking for stolen cattle, checking a license, or just seeing a suspicous vehicle out in a field late at night and making contact with them to make sure everything is ok. Also the way I understand things SD GFP has a policy in place to limit wardens from entering public ground unless they know someone is hunting, a crime has been commited or to put down an injured animal.
 
publichunter said:
LB you are so smart arent you? In America many cases and actions are dependent on case law and previous decesions of Courts. Yes open fields does not specify "deer police" as you call them. If you do not consider SD Game Fish and Parks Conservation officers "legitimate Law enforcement" sounds like a personal problem and not one based on Statutes of which the fine Legislature of which you are supposedly a member passed and made them legitamate law enforcement. I know why dont you introduce a Bill to do away with their legitamacy? It will get as far as every other Bill you have tried to pass dealing with game issues.
Looks like your nose is out of joint again, huh? That sometimes happens when a person can't back up their claims. I tried to help you all I could. Sorry it didn't work. :?

Couldn't you find anything in the cases you quoted or in the one I added that would substantiate your claim that GF&P can trespass on private land just to check a hunter's license? Does this mean that the deer police don't have more power than legitimate law enforcement as they claim?

Looks like the only face-saving avenue left open to you is to attack me? Dang! Don't you hate it when that happens? I'll bet you're really relieved that you didn't tell us your name, aren't you? :p
 
western SD said:
I am pretty sure that deputies over in eastern SD along with DCI agents go looking for wild growing marijuana along alot of the river drainages and do not gain permission before doing so. Also the murder investigation that was conducted in the pierre area in 2006 was done with out gaining permission from landowners to look for evidence of the crime. Yes the law enforcment did know a crime was commited but did not know where.

Furthermore on the open fields doctrine, it is giving the option to any law enforcement officer to enter in an open field as long as they are working within the scope of their duties. Whether it be looking for stolen cattle, checking a license, or just seeing a suspicous vehicle out in a field late at night and making contact with them to make sure everything is ok. Also the way I understand things SD GFP has a policy in place to limit wardens from entering public ground unless they know someone is hunting, a crime has been commited or to put down an injured animal.
I've got to differ with you – Open Fields does NOT give any law enforcement officer the right to trespass unless he or she has probable cause to believe a crime has been, or is being, committed.

If a game warden sees someone with a spotlight out in a pasture at night, he has reason to suspect that someone might be hunting illegally and can check them out. For that very reason, a lot of ranchers have met the game warden when they were doing late night heifer checks and that is a legitimate reason for the game warden or any other law enforcement officer to investigate.

Law enforcement can't just go driving around someone's pasture without a legitimate reason to be doing so. If they are looking for stolen cattle, they must have reason to believe that one particular landowner might be the thief. They can't just drive through everyone's cows to find a missing critter. They also can't drive around on everyone's land unless they have reason to suspect there might be a dead body or other evidence of a crime on a specific property.

Since the big lockout fiasco, GF&P has instituted a policy suggesting that their game wardens stay off private land unless they are checking hunters or fishermen. Hunting and fishing are not crimes and the Open Fields Doctrine does NOT allow trespass without either reasonable suspicion or probable cause that a CRIME has been committed. The law does not give the game warden the right to trespass just to check hunting or fishing licenses.

GF&P has nothing in policy to keep game wardens or anyone else off "public ground", because it is exactly that – public – and as such, that land belongs to all the public, GF&P included.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectation_of_privacy

I dont see where you have a leg to stand on LB.



" legitimate law enforcement officers " Why do you feel the need to use this term LB? I have asked this before without your response.
 
LB I guess you are just not going to get it, or more like it you just do not want to.
The Open Fields doctrine does give the ability of ANY law enforcement to go onto your open fields if they suspect a crime has been or is being done.
Even if you do not agree SD Game Fish and Parks not only their Conservation officers but ther Park Rangers are all considered law enforcement, which is granted to them in Codified South Dakota Law.
Compliance checks come under the open fields doctrine and allows Conservation Officers to enter private property to check license compliance.
I KNOW YOU AND YOUR LOCKOUT FRIENDS DONT BELEIVE THIS, BUT TO BAD IT IS HOW SOCIETY HAS CHOSEN TO MOVE AND OPERATE WITHIN. THE REST OF THE WORLD WILL CONTNUE ON AND YOU SIT WITHIN YOUR BUBBLE AND FESTER ALL YOU WANT TOO...
 
Liberty Belle said:
Since the big lockout fiasco, GF&P has instituted a policy suggesting that their game wardens stay off private land unless they are checking hunters or fishermen.
GF&P has nothing in policy to keep game wardens or anyone else off "public ground", because it is exactly that – public – and as such, that land belongs to all the public, GF&P included.

I'm confused????????????????

What is wrong with GF&P then, why still remained locked out????????????
 
Southdakotahunter said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectation_of_privacy

I dont see where you have a leg to stand on LB.



" legitimate law enforcement officers " Why do you feel the need to use this term LB? I have asked this before without your response.
The deer police would qualify as legitimate law enforcement if they were made to adhere to the same procedures and laws that real law enforcement officers have to follow.

Give us an example of anything I've said that is wrong? Please be specific, just throwing mud does nothing to clear things up. Post something from one of the cases that publichunter quoted or from some any other legal case that you find.
publichunter said:
LB I guess you are just not going to get it, or more like it you just do not want to. The Open Fields doctrine does give the ability of ANY law enforcement to go onto your open fields if they suspect a crime has been or is being done.
Oh, I've got it all right, and if you'll read what you just wrote over again, I think you may even be getting it! The Open Fields doctrine does give the ability of ANY law enforcement to go onto your open fields if they suspect a crime has been or is being done. Very good! You've got that part right.

publichunter said:
Even if you do not agree SD Game Fish and Parks not only their Conservation officers but ther Park Rangers are all considered law enforcement, which is granted to them in Codified South Dakota Law.
I have told you, and told you, and told you, ad nauseam, that ALL law enforcement, game wardens included, are ONLY allowed onto private property "if they suspect a crime has been or is being done."!! It must have soaked in, huh?

publichunter said:
Compliance checks come under the open fields doctrine and allows Conservation Officers to enter private property to check license compliance.
The Open Fields Doctrine does NOT give any law enforcement officer, not even the game warden, the ability to trespass unless "they suspect a crime has been or is being done". Give us the legal case that allows game wardens to trespass merely to check license compliance. I'll give you a hint - you won't be able to find one because it doesn't exist.

publichunter said:
I KNOW YOU AND YOUR LOCKOUT FRIENDS DONT BELEIVE THIS, BUT TO BAD IT IS HOW SOCIETY HAS CHOSEN TO MOVE AND OPERATE WITHIN. THE REST OF THE WORLD WILL CONTNUE ON AND YOU SIT WITHIN YOUR BUBBLE AND FESTER ALL YOU WANT TOO...
There you go again. I and "my lockout friends" have so much to keep us busy in the real world that we have neither the time nor the inclination to "fester", as you put it.

You guys are all worked up because a bunch of us landowners locked our land to hunters to protect ourselves from trespass by GF&P who insists that they can drive across our pastures to make sure YOU aren't breaking the law.

I hate to break it to you, but we're getting along just fine without having to put up with either hunters or game wardens. I know this galls you, but you'll probably get over it in time.
 
P Joe said:
Liberty Belle said:
Since the big lockout fiasco, GF&P has instituted a policy suggesting that their game wardens stay off private land unless they are checking hunters or fishermen.
GF&P has nothing in policy to keep game wardens or anyone else off "public ground", because it is exactly that – public – and as such, that land belongs to all the public, GF&P included.

I'm confused????????????????

What is wrong with GF&P then, why still remained locked out????????????
Because it is our PRIVATE land GF&P wants to trespass on, that's what's wrong. And until we have a law that protects us from GF&P, we'll keep our land locked out. GF&P policy isn't worth the paper it's printed on because it can be changed at any time. We will have that protection written into law or we won't allow hunting, it's as simple as that.
 
i think this says it all

The open fields doctrine was first articulated by the U.S. Supreme Court in Hester v. United States[1], which stated that "the special protection accorded by the Fourth Amendment to the people in their 'persons, houses, papers, and effects,' is not extended to the open fields."[2] This opinion appears to be decided on the basis that "open fields are not a "constitutionally protected area" because they cannot be construed as "persons, houses, papers, [or] effects."
This method of reasoning gave way with the arrival of the landmark case Katz v. U.S.,[3] which established a two-part test for what constitutes a search within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment. The relevant criteria are "first that a person have exhibited an actual (subjective) expectation of privacy and, second, that the expectation be one that society is prepared to recognize as reasonable."[4] Under this new analysis of the Fourth Amendment, a search of an object or area where a person has no reasonable expectation of privacy is, in a legal sense, not a search at all. That search, therefore, does not trigger the protections of the Fourth Amendment.
 
Southdakotahunter said:
i think this says it all

The open fields doctrine was first articulated by the U.S. Supreme Court in Hester v. United States[1], which stated that "the special protection accorded by the Fourth Amendment to the people in their 'persons, houses, papers, and effects,' is not extended to the open fields."[2] This opinion appears to be decided on the basis that "open fields are not a "constitutionally protected area" because they cannot be construed as "persons, houses, papers, [or] effects."
This method of reasoning gave way with the arrival of the landmark case Katz v. U.S.,[3] which established a two-part test for what constitutes a search within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment. The relevant criteria are "first that a person have exhibited an actual (subjective) expectation of privacy and, second, that the expectation be one that society is prepared to recognize as reasonable."[4] Under this new analysis of the Fourth Amendment, a search of an object or area where a person has no reasonable expectation of privacy is, in a legal sense, not a search at all. That search, therefore, does not trigger the protections of the Fourth Amendment.
What does it say? Does this tell us that law enforcement is free to drive all over anyone's private property just because they feel like it? No, it most definitely does not!

Show us where Hester v. US, Katz v. US, or any of the other Supreme Court cases allow ANY law enforcement officer to trespass if they don't first have reasonable suspicion or probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed or unless they see an actual crime in progress?

We're waiting..... :roll:
 
."[4] Under this new analysis of the Fourth Amendment, a search of an object or area where a person has no reasonable expectation of privacy is, in a legal sense, not a search at all. That search, therefore, does not trigger the protections of the Fourth Amendment.

i guess if you want to play those games LB, where does it say they cant?

What this is saying is they do NOT need a search warrent.
 
Liberty Belle said:
Because it is our PRIVATE land GF&P wants to trespass on, that's what's wrong. And until we have a law that protects us from GF&P, we'll keep our land locked out. GF&P policy isn't worth the paper it's printed on because it can be changed at any time. We will have that protection written into law or we won't allow hunting, it's as simple as that.

Still confused,

YOU have ranted for 3 pages about how the law DOES NOT give GF&P the right to do this.

GF&P's policy is not to do this. So what's the problem??

When has GF&P ever snooped around your land to check licenses??
 
LB there is not going to be anything specific that states conservation officers, it is called "interpetation" of the law, and what has been given to you bymyself, and SD hunter clearly shows in the interpetation of the law that law enforcement can enter open fields without your permission wether you like it or not.....So you just keep putting your Harding Co spin on it and say it doesnt....
 
Been doing some looking into this matter and found the official opinion of the ag's office on this matter. this is just part of it and I put the link there for all to read. It clearly states that the state supreme court has ruled that all law enforcment officers, not just wardens, can go onto private open fields without probable cause, resonable suspicion, consent, etc. Just thought I would clear some of the mud. There is also several other cases that have went to supreme court dealing with game wardens on the federal and state mentioned in this ruling.

http://www.state.sd.us/attorney/applications/documents/oneDocument.asp?DocumentID=636

The South Dakota Supreme Court adopted the principles quoted above in State v. Cook, 319 N.W.2d 809 (S.D. 1982). Clearly, a conservation officer conducting game and license checks or investigating crimes within his statutory responsibility is an officer of the law acting in the performance of his duties. The South Dakota Supreme Court has found that "an officer of the law may ordinarily trespass when acting in the scope of his duty." Swedlund v. Foster, 2003 S.D. 8, ¶ 40, 657 N.W.2d 39. The Court has also stated:

The general rule is that: Conduct otherwise a trespass is often justifiable by reason of authority vested in the person who does the act, as, for example, an officer of the law acting in the performance of his duty.

Frey, 440 N.W.2d at 726 (citing Cook, 319 N.W.2d at 812).

Therefore, any law enforcement officer, including a conservation officer, may enter an "open field" in the performance of his statutory duties even though the officer lacks probable cause, reasonable suspicion, consent or permission, or a search warrant without committing a trespass.
 
No need to spin it. Here you have it folks - the official GF&P position that is keeping you guys from hunting on our land. We might be a bunch of redneck ranchers, but we're not stupid and allowing hunting to subject our ranches to trespass by GF&P would be incredibly idiotic.

Sorry guys. This has been a lot of fun, but you haven't convinced any of us that hosting hunters again is something we want to do. Do any of you think that by posting excerpts from the opinions that caused us to lock our land to start with is going to change our minds? Dream on!

I'm going to post some URLs for you to further your research. Hopefully by reading these over and attempting to look at this from the landowners perspective (a stretch, I know!) you will be able to understand our problems with GF&P and the Open Fields Doctrine:

First, the Attorney General's opinion. Western SD posted excerpts for this. I will point out two things:
1.This is only Long's opinion, not fact and not a court case.

2.Our opinion and the opinions of our attorneys are diametrically opposed to his opinion and the opinion of GF&P, which incidentally doesn't have any bearing on how landowners conduct our affairs.
http://www.state.sd.us/attorney/applications/documents/oneDocument.asp?DocumentID=636

Second, this URL is GF&P's take on the Open Fields Doctrine – "Background Information and Legal Issues Pertaining to the Open Fields Doctrine and Conservation Officers Conducting Compliance Checks on Private Lands". It will come as no surprise to any of you that we disagree.
http://www.sdgfp.info/Wildlife/hunting/Info/OpenFieldsQandA.pdf

Third, I'm posting GF&P's policy requirements for entry onto private land in it's entirety. If this policy was written into law without clause #4 that I've highlighted, the lockout would be over today. I've also posted the URL for you so you can read it all for yourselves:

POLICY REQUIREMENTS RELATED TO ENTRY ONTO PRIVATE LANDS

A. While working in their official capacity, agency employees may not enter private land, without first seeking permission from the landowner or operator, for any purposes other than to make personal contact or gain permission for work related access to private land, with the exceptions listed in Sections B and C below.

B. In situations such as car-deer collisions, where the injured animal is located on private land but near to the road right-of-way, agency employees may enter upon private land without landowner or operator permission in order to humanely dispatch injured or sick wildlife, provided such entry is made on foot. In situations where sick, injured or diseased animals are located a greater distance onto private land, agency employees shall make a reasonable attempt to gain permission from the landowner or operator prior to entering. If the employee is unable to secure permission from the landowner or operator, and the employee is compelled to take more immediate action, they may enter private land and shall notify the landowner/operator of the cause for the entry as soon as possible. Reasonable precautions should be taken so that any use of a motor vehicle on private lands does not cause damage to crops, pastures or other property.

C. Conservation officers and other agency employees, whose duty is the enforcement of the game, fish, parks, boating and criminal laws of this state, shall follow the guidelines offered under the "Open Fields Doctrine", as summarized in Official Opinion Number 04- 01 from the South Dakota Office of the Attorney General, when entering open fields on private land for the purposes of:

1. Investigating reports of crimes and the enforcement of statutes as authorized under SDCL 41-15-10 and SDCL 41-15-10.1;

2. Rendering assistance to other law enforcement agencies in responding to emergencies, accidents, various requests for assistance or other matters pertaining to the protection of public safety;

3. Acting in the performance of his/her duty as a law enforcement officer; and

4. Conducting compliance checks of hunters, trappers, anglers and boaters.

Prior to entering private land to conduct a compliance check, officers must personally observe or be able to reasonably articulate that hunting, fishing, trapping, boating or other such activities regulated by the Department of Game, Fish and Parks are taking place on the property at the time.

http://www.sdgfp.info/Wildlife/hunting/Info/PolicyforEmployeeEntryontoPrivateLands.pdf

More reading for you - this is a copy of the bill I introduced in the 2006. It was taken almost exactly from the bills that were introduced in twice before. It was written by some very good attorneys and does not restrict law enforcement in any way. Read it over and tell me what you think is wrong with it?

HOUSE BILL NO. 1148

Introduced by: Representatives Olson (Betty), Dennert, Engels, Hanks, and Howie and Senators Napoli, Maher, McNenny, and Schmidt (Dennis)

FOR AN ACT ENTITLED, An Act to restrict the entry of conservation officers onto certain private land without permission.
BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF SOUTH DAKOTA:
Section 1. That chapter 41-2 be amended by adding thereto a NEW SECTION to read as follows:

No conservation officer may, in the course of performing the ordinary duties of a conservation officer, enter any private land unless the conservation officer has the permission of the landowner or the lessee. However, any conservation officer may enter any private land without permission:

(1) If reasonable suspicion or probable cause exists that a violation of a law that the conservation officer is authorized to enforce has been, is being, or is about to be committed;

(2) To investigate a report of illegal hunting, fishing, or trapping activity;

(3) To dispatch crippled or distressed wildlife;

(4) To respond to emergency situations, accidents, or other threats to public safety.
 
Liberty Belle said:
HOUSE BILL NO. 1148

Introduced by: Representatives Olson (Betty), Dennert, Engels, Hanks, and Howie and Senators Napoli, Maher, McNenny, and Schmidt (Dennis)

FOR AN ACT ENTITLED, An Act to restrict the entry of conservation officers onto certain private land without permission.
BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF SOUTH DAKOTA:
Section 1. That chapter 41-2 be amended by adding thereto a NEW SECTION to read as follows:

No conservation officer may, in the course of performing the ordinary duties of a conservation officer, enter any private land unless the conservation officer has the permission of the landowner or the lessee. However, any conservation officer may enter any private land without permission:

(1) If reasonable suspicion or probable cause exists that a violation of a law that the conservation officer is authorized to enforce has been, is being, or is about to be committed;

(2) To investigate a report of illegal hunting, fishing, or trapping activity;

(3) To dispatch crippled or distressed wildlife;

(4) To respond to emergency situations, accidents, or other threats to public safety.

How does a game warden check for plugs in shotguns, license violations, and species violations under you bill??
 
P Joe said:
Liberty Belle said:
HOUSE BILL NO. 1148

Introduced by: Representatives Olson (Betty), Dennert, Engels, Hanks, and Howie and Senators Napoli, Maher, McNenny, and Schmidt (Dennis)

FOR AN ACT ENTITLED, An Act to restrict the entry of conservation officers onto certain private land without permission.
BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF SOUTH DAKOTA:
Section 1. That chapter 41-2 be amended by adding thereto a NEW SECTION to read as follows:

No conservation officer may, in the course of performing the ordinary duties of a conservation officer, enter any private land unless the conservation officer has the permission of the landowner or the lessee. However, any conservation officer may enter any private land without permission:

(1) If reasonable suspicion or probable cause exists that a violation of a law that the conservation officer is authorized to enforce has been, is being, or is about to be committed;

(2) To investigate a report of illegal hunting, fishing, or trapping activity;

(3) To dispatch crippled or distressed wildlife;

(4) To respond to emergency situations, accidents, or other threats to public safety.

How does a game warden check for plugs in shotguns, license violations, and species violations under you bill??
By getting written permission from the landowner to do those compliance checks on private land the same way that our predator control pilots have to get signed permission before they can kill predators on private land.

The permission slips that GF&P makes the pilots sign only last for three years. The permission slip for game wardens would last indefinitely and they could get them signed weeks, months or years before they need them. How burdensome could that possibly be? I should point out that the GF&P trappers are also supposed to have those signed permission slips before they go on private land.

GF&P doesn't think it's too burdensome for our pilots to have to get permission from landowners every three years. Why should the game warden be treated differently? Especially when checking hunters is not nearly as important as controlling predators that can be devastating to livestock producers.
 

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