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TRADE ....... WHY ?

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HAY MAKER

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Since the U.S. country-of-origin labeling law went into effect a month ago, more meat plants in the U.S. are just saying "no" to Canadian hogs and cattle for processing. The Canadian pork council said that some U.S. hog processing companies have said they will not purchase hogs born outside of the States. Other U.S. processors have said they will only buy Canadian pigs on certain days at selected plants.

With new country-of-origin labelling laws shutting Canadian hogs and cattle out of American markets, a growing number of Canadian producers are seeking trade actions.

The Canadian Cattlemen's Association and the Canadian Pork Council are asking their government to challenge the U.S. law under rules of the North American free-trade agreement. They warn that the COOL law will drive some Canadian producers out of business, reduce livestock herds and cost the two industries $800 million per year.

"They need to initiate a trade challenge against the U.S.," said John Masswohl of the CCA. He added that producers are concerned the law could be made even more troublesome to Canadian livestock producers if U.S. voters send more trade-protectionist politicians to Washington in Tuesday's elections.

Under COOL, Canadian animals are required to have documentation about their origin, and in the case of cattle, the animals must have identification tags that indicate they are mad cow disease-free. In addition, Canadian livestock must be segregated in U.S. feedlots and packing plants which increases the investment and digs into already narrow profit margins.

The Canadian pork industry may lose about $350-million a year if the law remains in effect without revisions. The presidents of both the CCA and the CPC have urged the Canadian government to take action. Together the two groups represent about 100,000 producers.

Agriculture Minister Gerry Ritz said Ottawa wants to influence U.S. COOL laws by working with the American lawmakers and industry. "I would caution that if the federal government is taking the view that it must have concrete evidence of the adverse impact of COOL before approaching the U.S., very valuable time will be lost and any solution could come too late for the Canadian swine industry."
The cattlemen's association says some corporations, including Tyson, are already refusing Canadian cattle and that others such as Cargill may only slaughter Canadian cattle on certain days.

CCA president Brad Wildeman, who runs a feedlot near Lanigan Sask., was even more emphatic in his letter to the prime minister. "Our preliminary estimate is that COOL is reducing the value of Canadian cattle at a rate approaching $500-million per year. We fear that the next U.S. administration may further tighten the procedures," he wrote. "The worst has likely not yet been seen and we anticipate the costs could grow further. Therefore, we urge you to initiate a trade challenge immediately to seek repeal of this egregious U.S. law."

Ritz suggested if that isn't successful, Ottawa would consider launching a trade challenge.

"We have made it clear to the United States that we will consider all our options, including actions under both the North American Free Trade Agreement and World Trade Organization provisions, but right now we have a window of opportunity to influence the COOL regulations before they become final and we are focused on that," Ritz said.

The U.S. COOL law that took effect on October 1st is called an interim final rule. The final rule is expected to be passed next year.

Canada Cattle Update: Beef Imports;

Total beef and cattle imports from January to August have not changed all that much from a year ago with value up 7.3% at $620k versus $577k. However, there have been some differences in the breakdown of imports by country. Beef imports from the U.S. are 25% higher at 192 million lbs for the January to August 2008 time period compared to 154 million lbs for the same period in 2007.



Looking at other countries; imports from Australia are 13% lower than 2007 at 12 million lbs, New Zealand is 16% lower at 38 million lbs, the EU is down 88% at 0.005 million lbs, Brazil is down 40% at 4.9 million lbs. Argentina is up 17% from 2007 volumes at 1.6 million lbs, Uruguay is down 74% of 2007 at 9.8 million lbs and other sources are down 7% from 2007 levels at 0.06 million lbs. It is worth noting that imports from China last year were at 0.06 million lbs and this year we haven't imported any beef or cattle from China. Although the imports have increased from Argentina and the U.S. and decreased from most other countries total beef imports for January to August 2008 are nearly the same as the same time period in 2007, down 3% or 266 million lbs.



Canada's beef trade exports of 1,248 million lbs for the January to August period are 369% larger than beef imports. In other words Canada imports about 21% of what we export in terms of volume. In dollar terms imports are about 33% of exports. This difference in volume to value is attributed to the numbers of live cattle to be processed in the U.S. compared to the processed meats with more value imported into Canada from the U.S. and other countries.



In 2008 our most significant trading partner is the U.S. supplying Canada with 74% of imported beef and cattle imports. With the Looney losing value to the U.S. Greenback we will likely see a decline of imports going through the end of 2008 as it puts U.S. beef at a price disadvantage. If the volume of processed beef continues at the same rate we will likely see a shift to imports from other countries and away from the U.S. Overall we should not see too much of a change in 2008 volumes compared to 2007 with the year ending around 400 million lbs. However we should see about a 10% increase in dollar value of imports at around $900 million dollars.

-----------------------------------------

Now I have to ask,since we know The industry rule-of-thumb adopted by the International Trade Commission (ITC) is that a 1 percent increase in supply causes a 2 percent decrease in price,and we know these cattle are packer owned and controlled and we know they are used to put downward pressure on the market...................Why would the US cattle man be pro trade ?
good luck
 
Why trade? Because that's what humans have been doing since they lived in caves. It's what drives the whole world's economy. Money does no good if it doesn't move. I buy from you, you buy from me. We both get something out of it. The goal is Fair Trade. The kind of trade where both benefit. Usually if both parties are slightly dissapointed in a trade, that's probably a fair one. If one is dissapointed, and one is overjoyed, then someone got screwed. That's just how it works.

Up until 2003, our two countries were pretty balanced in our beef and cattle trade. No one was dancing in the streets on either side, but then again, no one was totally dissatisfied either, other than those who made a profession out of shutting borders and needed to justify their existence. :wink: All those types needed was an excuse, and then they were off to the races in a rush to shut things down.

Last month 15,000 sows in Manitoba were eliminated from the herd. That's in one month. In one province. I'd call that damage. They've been hurt even more than cattle.

The livestock industry in this country has expanded over the years due to low grain prices. (which are coming back yet again.) :roll: The ironic thing is that part of our low grain prices were a result of losing freight rate subsidies in the naieve notion that it would prevent American trade action against us. I remember a time when oats were so cheap that if you sold them for export you'd get a bill. The freight was higher than the value of the oats. No wonder the livestock expanded.

We also thought we had an export agreement with your country that meant something. Livestock producers in this country were just as naieve as our government to think that the U.S. had enough respect for it's reputation to actually live up to it's agreements, but we've learned since that it ain't so.

If it's in your best interest, which means you have the advantage over your trade partners, you honour your word. If your trade partners have success, then you ignore your side of the bargain. We've all learned this over and over again in past years with such things as the neverending softwood lumber and Wheat Board challenges, which as soon as they are decided in Canada's favour, are rechallenged. Again and again and again.

I guess the American Way, means that if you don't like the way a legal decision comes out, you just go shopping for another judge and retrying it until you finally do get the result you want. When that happens, of course, you decide the court was correct.

Does it make those who pushed for MCOOL to supersede NAFTA happy to know that they are crushing their neighbours? Does it make them proud to have a reputation for dishonouring agreements? Are they happy to see people lose their farms and homes in order to maybe, just maybe they can get an extra one and a half cents for their cattle? :???:
 
Kato said:
Does it make those who pushed for MCOOL to supersede NAFTA happy to know that they are crushing their neighbours? Does it make them proud to have a reputation for dishonouring agreements? Are they happy to see people lose their farms and homes in order to maybe, just maybe they can get an extra one and a half cents for their cattle? :???:

And you don't think the same is happening down here with the $5 fuel of this summer and $.90 calves... :???: The saddest thing is its mostly the younger (under 40) folks that just got into farming/ranching and that needed $1 calves just to break even....

If asking US consumers to buy US Beef to help their fellow US farmer/ranchers thru this economic blunder that is happening is not considered the right thing to do - then I guess I don't know what ever will be....

Kato- a lot of the chances of sympathy that was out there for Canadians- immediately disappeared when right after NAFTA went into affect- Canadian ranchers and the Canadian government put up restrictions to 2 way trade- and said "All US Cattle are Diseased" and stopped US cattle trade going north...
You set the precedent -that these are 2 separate herds and that either one of the governments can thereby set rules and laws on importing them or marketing them...
Folks now have asked that their food products be marked as to what country they originate in- and for once the government is starting to listen to those folks out there that have started kicking the foot draggers and corporate stooges out of office....

Heres a portion of a letter that I stole from Agriville that sums up the Backlash that took place in US politics- and the rising tide that are upset over the business as usual at the USDA and in D.C. ...

And I think if I remember right Kato- even on the Agriville site- as much as 4 years ago- I predicted this would happen- starting in 06 and continuing thru Nov. 4th...US citizens are slow to stir up- but don't like an arrogant leadership telling them they know more than than the people do- and then they react- and usually overreact....

The American people are slow to wrath, but once that wrath is kindled, it burns like a consuming flame. ~Theodore Roosevelt

I believe in corporations. They are indispensable instruments of our modern civilization; but I believe that they should be so supervised and so regulated that they shall act for the interest of the community as a whole. ~ Theodore Roosevelt


OBAMA BACK UNFAIR LABELLING LAW

On September 25 - around the time Sarah Palin's meltdown interview with Katie Couric was airing, and a couple days before she was sliced and diced by Tina Fey on Saturday Night Live - a letter arrived on Ed Schafer's desk.

If you're not too sure who Schafer is, don't worry.

It's hard keeping up with the revolving door at the United States Department of Agriculture.

Schafer is the latest - and clearly the last - Secretary of Agriculture that the Bush administration will ever have. It's not easy being in the cabinet of the most unpopular U.S. president in recent history.

And the job just got a whole lot worse when the rocket from 27 US senators arrived in Honourable Ed's mail slot.

To begin with, it commended him for finally bringing in the controversial Country of Origin Labelling rules for fresh food sold in U.S. supermarkets. And in particular, pork and beef, of which this province exports many tonnes.

"This rule is a step forward after years of effort," the senators told Bush's farm boss. "To provide clear, accurate, and truthful information to consumers."

So far so good.

But Schafer was also told that "there's a good deal of room for improving the rule."

In the senators' eyes the Bushies fudged the "intent of Congress" by creating loopholes.

"Producers and consumers have waited long enough," the letter railed. "And deserve a common-sense rule that accomplishes the goal of letting them know where their food products come from."

Including Alberta.

All the usual border state suspects' signatures appear. But there are some stars, too. Hillary Clinton signed. So did John Kerry. Vice presidential candidate Joe Biden also inked the letter.

But the scrawl that jumps out at you like a yard dog is that of Barack Obama. Who by tonight, unless John McCain is blessed by angels, will become the U.S. president-elect.
 
Oldtimer,

The degree of where people want to know "Where thier Beef Comes from" allows its own loopholes... The customers that generally care about this are asking a lot more than what borders. Issues such as Hormones, feeding conditions, ect.... Actually, these componenets of where it comes from matters more than any patriotic feel. They would rather have what they view as clean beef from the south pole than what they are getting in many cases domestically

COOL is a lazy persons way about it. It allows the concentrated segment of our industry "Packers" to ochestrate our future by running the final label. Take action and make your own label. It can have what the customer truly wants to know regarding where thier beef wants to know.

The rewards are not only in relation to ding the work yourself, bt the choices in the work you do,

Personally, I shake my head with Canada's perception of needing the US market. I have been told thier is a perception of "WE do things so we don't step on the US's toes"...Wha????? Raising and marketing a beef product that resonates genuinely with the world customer is not stepping on our toes. Crap, if I view the government as being contrary to the right thing to do, I tell them to Pi$$ up a rope. Don't think i would view you telling them to do that as stepping on my toes,

PPRM


PPRM
 
COOL is a lazy persons way about it. It allows the concentrated segment of our industry "Packers" to ochestrate our future by running the final label. Take action and make your own label. It can have what the customer truly wants to know regarding where thier beef wants to know.

PPRM-- I'm glad you can market your beef the way you do- and you enjoy being a door to door meat peddler--but not all areas or folks are set up to do that- either with population or kill facilities...You apparently have enough urban or suburban area close by to allow you to do so-- but some of us that live in areas where cows outnumber people 1000's to 1 would have a hell of a time choking that much meat down a few people... Or have the time to package market 1000's of beef around the country...Many are cattle producers- not beef producers....
 
Kato- a lot of the chances of sympathy that was out there for Canadians- immediately disappeared when right after NAFTA went into affect- Canadian ranchers and the Canadian government put up restrictions to 2 way trade- and said "All US Cattle are Diseased" and stopped US cattle trade going north...

US cattle were not stopped. They were restricted as to what time of year, and required testing, but that is no more restriction than can occur between states. That argument won't hold water.

Are you aware that NAFTA guarantees you access to our oil, even if we're running out of it? We have signed on to share, even if there's one barrel left in the ground? Do you know of any other such security blanket given by any other country in the world? I doubt it very much. Most people up here aren't even aware of it, and would probably love to get that out of the agreement if it's reopened for negotiation. There are lots of people here who do not agree with a lot of the terms of NAFTA, but unlike some, we do live up to our word, and will honour the terms of the agreement until the time comes that the terms are changed in a legal and proper manner.

Personally, I shake my head with Canada's perception of needing the US market. I have been told thier is a perception of "WE do things so we don't step on the US's toes"...Wha????? Raising and marketing a beef product that resonates genuinely with the world customer is not stepping on our toes.

Try being on this end of the deal and see what happens. You have no idea what it's like to be on the receiving end of furthering "American Interests". That's a term that sends shivers up the backs of anyone who feels they have gotten in the way of said Interests. Since NAFTA was signed, it's been one trade action after another, with lumber, hogs, and the Wheat Board being very popular targets. If you don't like the ruling, and since it's almost always in our favour, you don't, so you just do it over and over and over again. Once you get a ruling you like, then it's all good. Until that time the litigation never ends. You guys are not easy to do business with, but since we are your next door neighbours, you're pretty hard to ignore.

As for MCOOL, the main beneficiaries of this law so far have been the Australians. Australian beef is very quickly expanding their share of the market now that Canadian live cattle are being discounted. Don't forget the same big packers that are here are also in Australia, and they have lower costs of production than either we or you. The market will be filled, and filled at the lowest cost, no matter where it has to come from. South American beef will be next, of that you can be sure. In the meantime, we'll be out of business, and you'll be getting no more for your cattle than the packers deem necessary.

MCOOL only discriminates against one class of import, and that is live animals.
 
Oldtimer said:
COOL is a lazy persons way about it. It allows the concentrated segment of our industry "Packers" to ochestrate our future by running the final label. Take action and make your own label. It can have what the customer truly wants to know regarding where thier beef wants to know.

PPRM-- I'm glad you can market your beef the way you do- and you enjoy being a door to door meat peddler--but not all areas or folks are set up to do that- either with population or kill facilities...You apparently have enough urban or suburban area close by to allow you to do so-- but some of us that live in areas where cows outnumber people 1000's to 1 would have a hell of a time choking that much meat down a few people... Or have the time to package market 1000's of beef around the country...Many are cattle producers- not beef producers....

The Beef Producers at Painted Hills and Oregon Country Beef Live in remote areas..... So, my model doesn't work for you, but these guys ranch in country simlar to the pictures nicky posts...they chose to reach out...

The attitude of can't and "They tried and failed so it is impossible" pays in accordance to the efforts that generally follow... All I am saying is COOL is being touted as giving the consumer knowledge of where thier meat comes from. The reality is the ones that truly care want more information...Borders don't equal quality,


Kato,

Your comments on the lowest cost fail to recognize the importance of quality...

PPRM
 
kato, I and the people of the United States appreciate your willingness to trade oil,I suppose you are selling it to us at below market value ?
good luck
 
HAY MAKER said:
kato, I and the people of the United States appreciate your willingness to trade oil,I suppose you are selling it to us at below market value ?
good luck

We must be, your gas and diesel seems to average about a dollar a gallon cheaper than here. :wink:
 
The cattlemen's association says some corporations, including Tyson, are already refusing Canadian cattle and that others such as Cargill may only slaughter Canadian cattle on certain days.
Does anyone else find it interesting that Tyson and Cargill are refusing to process Canadian cattle in the USA when they process the majority of Canadian cattle in Canada?

Kato said:
US cattle were not stopped. They were restricted as to what time of year, and required testing, but that is no more restriction than can occur between states. That argument won't hold water.
Are Canadian cattle or beef being stopped?...by whom?

PPRM, when your head gets bloody from beating it against the wall...I'll send bandages.
 
Does anyone else find it interesting that Tyson and Cargill are refusing to process Canadian cattle in the USA when they process the majority of Canadian cattle in Canada?

They're so busy slaughtering cows up here that they don't need fats. According to a local trucker, after the bred cow sales up here the trucks are finding that about 80% of the cows sold are being shipped for slaughter. Guys have hit the wall, and they're getting out of the business as fast as they can. All the bred cow sales here are booked into the new year already. The top bred cow in one recent sale went straight to the packers, so you can imagine most of the rest of the cows in that sale did too. By this time next year no one is sure how many will be left in the business. It's being decimated. That's the only word for it.

Two of our closest neighbour's herds left this week. One has found work in Alberta, and the other switched to grain. That leaves only two in the immediate neighbourhood with cattle, one of them being us.

How long before the packers leave too? I can see them staying until something needs an expensive upgrade, and then it's game over. Either they will go on government welfare to pay for it, or they will leave.

Are Canadian cattle or beef being stopped?...by whom?

They're not being stopped. ... yet. But pigs are. A lot of hog processers are refusing Canadian hogs, and the uncertainty that we are living with whether the beef processors will do the same thing is what's hurting us. The discounts applied to that uncertainty are significant, especially in the feeder markets. Everyone with ties to the U.S. are sitting on their hands waiting.

In the meantime cattle producers are going broke.
 
Kato said:
Does anyone else find it interesting that Tyson and Cargill are refusing to process Canadian cattle in the USA when they process the majority of Canadian cattle in Canada?

They're so busy slaughtering cows up here that they don't need fats. According to a local trucker, after the bred cow sales up here the trucks are finding that about 80% of the cows sold are being shipped for slaughter. Guys have hit the wall, and they're getting out of the business as fast as they can. All the bred cow sales here are booked into the new year already. The top bred cow in one recent sale went straight to the packers, so you can imagine most of the rest of the cows in that sale did too. By this time next year no one is sure how many will be left in the business. It's being decimated. That's the only word for it.

Two of our closest neighbour's herds left this week. One has found work in Alberta, and the other switched to grain. That leaves only two in the immediate neighbourhood with cattle, one of them being us.

How long before the packers leave too? I can see them staying until something needs an expensive upgrade, and then it's game over. Either they will go on government welfare to pay for it, or they will leave.

Are Canadian cattle or beef being stopped?...by whom?

They're not being stopped. ... yet. But pigs are. A lot of hog processers are refusing Canadian hogs, and the uncertainty that we are living with whether the beef processors will do the same thing is what's hurting us. The discounts applied to that uncertainty are significant, especially in the feeder markets. Everyone with ties to the U.S. are sitting on their hands waiting.

In the meantime cattle producers are going broke.
How much does the high price of grain/feed have to do with these issues?
 
Kato- I supported NAFTA when it first came up- thinking what a perfect situation with many states close to Canada sitting with lots of cattle- and Canada sitting there with lots of grain/barley production and feedlots...Many others thought the same...Then Canada pooped on our heads with their "All US CATTLE ARE DISEASED" restrictions... Between that and our monetary valuation differences ( which along with differing laws and social costs is one of the drawbacks of any trade agreements) the trade of these cattle never got started--Canada set a precedent of 2 seperate and distinct herds- and the rest is history...

I truly believe that if Canadians hadn't crapped in their nest and trade in these cattle into Canadian feedlots had occurred the cattle/beef industry would have become so intertwined that M-COOL may not have came about-- or at least wouldn't have been so heavily supported/pushed by neighboring states....

Now that I've seen that the WTO rules mean nothing to most countries- I think we are idiots entering into FTA's that anyone can make up their own rules for and so essentially make the WTO and the agreements worthless...
The first duty of our government now is/should be protecting the viability of the US producer- just like Europe, Korea, Japan, Canada, etc. etc. protect their producers........
 
Well, RM, in my view, high grain prices are (were) just one more body blow to an already reeling industry. Unless you have personally lived through it, I don't think anyone can understand the stress and uncertainty experienced by the Canadian cattle producer since 2003. It hasn't been very much fun. A ton of equity down the drain.

When urban people ask what what the trouble is, I ask them how they would like to try to get by when they haven't had a full paycheck for 5 years. Then I add, the paycheck is based on 30 year old numbers, how would they like that? Non comprehendez.
 
I'm beginning to be more of the opinion that the sooner we get our cattle herd shrunk to service domestic demand, the better off we will be. Then shut the imports off.
I hope they keep killing cows off at this rate for another year or two. I like buying young bred cows for $4-500.
 
gcreekrch said:
I'm beginning to be more of the opinion that the sooner we get our cattle herd shrunk to service domestic demand, the better off we will be. Then shut the imports off.
I hope they keep killing cows off at this rate for another year or two. I like buying young bred cows for $4-500.

So what percent of your herd are you going to dispose of to reach your goal of meeting domestic usage only?
 
burnt said:
gcreekrch said:
I'm beginning to be more of the opinion that the sooner we get our cattle herd shrunk to service domestic demand, the better off we will be. Then shut the imports off.
I hope they keep killing cows off at this rate for another year or two. I like buying young bred cows for $4-500.

So what percent of your herd are you going to dispose of to reach your goal of meeting domestic usage only?

I'm not, my neighbors across this country are doing it for me. All I have to do is hang on till it turns around. :wink:
A big majority of the folks that are bailing out now bought in when cattle were high and grain was down. Now the reverse is happening, it's called the cattle cycle. I just wish grain farmers would stick to the crop they know best and leave cattle alone. At least their land is capable of producing another crop.
My other crop would be jack-pines and I won't live long enough to harvest a crop.

Hard-headed? Narrow Minded? Self Serving? Yep. Just like most of us in agriculture.
 
gcreekrch said:
I'm beginning to be more of the opinion that the sooner we get our cattle herd shrunk to service domestic demand, the better off we will be.
Then shut the imports off.
I hope they keep killing cows off at this rate for another year or two. I like buying young bred cows for $4-500.


Shut the imports huh ????? :D :D :D hot dam thats the funniest thang I heard all day...............good luck boy

PS careful about restrictin imports,those canuckleheads will think you are a R CALFER :wink:
 
HAY MAKER said:
gcreekrch said:
I'm beginning to be more of the opinion that the sooner we get our cattle herd shrunk to service domestic demand, the better off we will be.
Then shut the imports off.
I hope they keep killing cows off at this rate for another year or two. I like buying young bred cows for $4-500.


Shut the imports huh ????? :D :D :D hot dam thats the funniest thang I heard all day...............good luck boy

PS careful about restrictin imports,those canuckleheads will think you are a R CALFER :wink:

If most folks learned from other folks failures and successes instead of having to go their own way OR depending on govt to do their negotiating for them we would be better off.
Canada signed NAFTA knowing it left a lot to be desired but it looked good to be doing SOMETHING. If you want a deal to get screwed up....get lots of lawyers involved in it. :roll:

As far as being called an R-Calfer, I've been called worse but by very little margin. :wink:
 
gcreekrch said:
HAY MAKER said:
gcreekrch said:
I'm beginning to be more of the opinion that the sooner we get our cattle herd shrunk to service domestic demand, the better off we will be.
I hope they keep killing cows off at this rate for another year or two. I like buying young bred cows for $4-500.


Shut the imports huh ????? :D :D :D hot dam thats the funniest thang I heard all day...............good luck boy

PS careful about restrictin imports,those canuckleheads will think you are a R CALFER :wink:

If most folks learned from other folks failures and successes instead of having to go their own way OR depending on govt to do their negotiating for them we would be better off.
Canada signed NAFTA knowing it left a lot to be desired but it looked good to be doing SOMETHING. If you want a deal to get screwed up....get lots of lawyers involved in it. :roll:

As far as being called an R-Calfer,
I've been called worse but by very little margin. :wink:

Well you might outa be careful how you measure your margins,seeing as how you are an admitted protectionist,and thats alright.............a man has sumthin valuble,it need protectin,after all if you dont do it ,who is ?
I believe you to be right when you say a man can learn from failure and or success,its as simple as this.........some folks are good at ranchin and some are good at farmin,I believe you will make a rancher,other folks like big dummie from big beaver that have been brain washed by packers outa stick to farming,I dont believe he has the sense a rancher needs,and to prove my point take one look at that ugly mug of his,looks like a born pig farmer,truth be known,probably smells like one too...............good luck
 

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