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TRADE ....... WHY ?

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Shaft said:
NAFTA was never ratified by the Senate- which is Constitutionally required of all treaties with a foreign country....

Well OT, hate to break it to you but here's a news flash from Section 8 of Article 1:

"[1] The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; ...
[3] To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes..."

Care to try again? Congress regulates trade with 'foreign nations', not the Senate. NAFTA ain't no peace treaty OT, it is a trade agreement. What else ya got?

If it isn't a treaty- why is it then subject to world rules like WTO, OIE, etc...

It was never ratified by 2/3 of the majority of the Senate- because they didn't have the votes....And more and more Congressmen/Senators are reminding themselves of that...Especially when some countries come in and challenge the peoples and lawmakers RIGHT to pass laws like M-COOL...No treaty can take away Constitutionally guaranteed rights and privileges....

Article II of the United States Constitution

Clause 2: Advice and Consent Clause
The President may exercise several powers with the advice and consent of the Senate.

He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.
 
hillsdown said:
I will tell you one thing, Canada had not better put in one f@ck'n penny to bail out some god damn dirty Americans who pilfer and steel from their own coorporations ,and expect honest hard working tax payers to bail them out.

Let them close ,if they sold their jets and got rid of all the fluff they could bail out their own companies..

:clap: :clap: :clap: :agree:


Jeepers hillsdown, don't hold it in so - I would like to see you get really passionate about something just once and let off some steam! :lol2:
 
If it isn't a treaty- why is it then subject to world rules like WTO, OIE, etc...

OT, you must be getting deaf as well as senile. NAFTA = North American Free Trade Agreement. It is not a treaty. It is a trade agreement.

The OIE is a paper tiger. It makes recommendations, not rules, one of which was that the US not close the border in 2003. Some rule.
 
Shaft, "Care to try again? Congress regulates trade with 'foreign nations', not the Senate. NAFTA ain't no peace treaty OT, it is a trade agreement. What else ya got?"

Now that you've acknowledged that Congress regulates trade, I've got news for you, Shaft; the Senate is half of Congress. Now, if you could show me where NAFTA passed the SENATE and the HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES (CONGRESS), you would be standing on firmer ground.
 
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=103&session=1&vote=00395

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1993/roll575.xml

Fair trade=We charge the same tariff for goods coming into the USA as other countries charge on our goods going into their country...and have a fixed exchange rate.
 
Shaft, "NAFTA ain't no peace treaty OT, it is a trade agreement. What else ya got?"

For your convience, the definition of "Treaty" per Websters;

1. a formal agreement between two or more states in reference to peace, alliance, commerce, or other international relations.
2. the formal document embodying such an international agreement.
3. any agreement or compact.

What else ya got?
 
Sandy,

You will keep insisting on relying on Noah's Book of Misnomers, now won't you?

FYI the OED (shorter version - the big one is at home) says that a treaty is a pact between two contries that has been ratified. Given that you say that NAFTA was never ratified it cannot, by definition, be a treaty.

I believe the technical term is Catch-22.
 
RobertMac,

NAFTA fits precisely your definition of fair trade in that there are no tariffs on goods flowing either way. The fixed exchange rate is an interesting idea, but I do not see any mechanism for calculating same or getting the manufacturers and other exporters to agree to it.

NAFTA is the best that could be done in the fair trade direction, given the practical constraints of politics and comerce, and it gives the US guaranteed access to Canadian oil and gas. Where's the beef?
 
if you're going to have a fixed exchange rate who sets it? oh right, you do. what about letting the open and free markets set exchange rates? wouldn't that constitute fair trade in its purest form?
 
Shaft said:
Sandy,

You will keep insisting on relying on Noah's Book of Misnomers, now won't you?

FYI the OED (shorter version - the big one is at home) says that a treaty is a pact between two contries that has been ratified. Given that you say that NAFTA was never ratified it cannot, by definition, be a treaty.

I believe the technical term is Catch-22.

It it has not been ratified, you've got nothing but a proposal.
 
If it's just a proposal, then it's one that the interests in your country don't hesitate to grab onto and use to try and stop everything from cattle, softwood lumber, hogs, or wheat whenever it suits them. We've lost count of how many times the Wheat Board has been challenged and cleared of wrongdoing, but that doesn't stop U.S. interest groups from going at it again and again and again.

NAFTA and it's rules are just fine, and very legal when it's the U.S. on the attack, but if anyone else, like Canada tries to challenge it's misuse under those same rules then NAFTA becomes just an unconstitutional proposal

Typical American trade policy. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: If you're on top, then it's a good deal. If someone else looks like they might get ahead then they must be cheating. You can use the rules to your advantage when it suits you, but no one else is allowed to.

Pathetic.

:roll:
 
Sandhusker said:
Shaft said:
Sandy,

You will keep insisting on relying on Noah's Book of Misnomers, now won't you?

FYI the OED (shorter version - the big one is at home) says that a treaty is a pact between two contries that has been ratified. Given that you say that NAFTA was never ratified it cannot, by definition, be a treaty.

I believe the technical term is Catch-22.

It it has not been ratified, you've got nothing but a proposal.

S-sandy, you are st-stuttering.
 
Kato said:
If it's just a proposal, then it's one that the interests in your country don't hesitate to grab onto and use to try and stop everything from cattle, softwood lumber, hogs, or wheat whenever it suits them. We've lost count of how many times the Wheat Board has been challenged and cleared of wrongdoing, but that doesn't stop U.S. interest groups from going at it again and again and again.

NAFTA and it's rules are just fine, and very legal when it's the U.S. on the attack, but if anyone else, like Canada tries to challenge it's misuse under those same rules then NAFTA becomes just an unconstitutional proposal

Typical American trade policy. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: If you're on top, then it's a good deal. If someone else looks like they might get ahead then they must be cheating. You can use the rules to your advantage when it suits you, but no one else is allowed to.

Pathetic.

:roll:

I'll never support holding Canada or Mexico to any NAFTA provisions. As far as I'm concerned, and what the Constitution spells out, it's not a binding or enforceable agreement under US law. Therefore, none of the parties are beholding to it.
 
Sandhusker said:
Kato said:
If it's just a proposal, then it's one that the interests in your country don't hesitate to grab onto and use to try and stop everything from cattle, softwood lumber, hogs, or wheat whenever it suits them. We've lost count of how many times the Wheat Board has been challenged and cleared of wrongdoing, but that doesn't stop U.S. interest groups from going at it again and again and again.

NAFTA and it's rules are just fine, and very legal when it's the U.S. on the attack, but if anyone else, like Canada tries to challenge it's misuse under those same rules then NAFTA becomes just an unconstitutional proposal

Typical American trade policy. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: If you're on top, then it's a good deal. If someone else looks like they might get ahead then they must be cheating. You can use the rules to your advantage when it suits you, but no one else is allowed to.

Pathetic.

:roll:

I'll never support holding Canada or Mexico to any NAFTA provisions. As far as I'm concerned, and what the Constitution spells out, it's not a binding or enforceable agreement under US law. Therefore, none of the parties are beholding to it.

The troll is squealing to be fed!!

Sandhusker, I promise to use all little words so as not to try to appear superior. Are you still with me?

As was pointed out by someone else lately, it would be so helpful of you to use the right words to express your thoughts - in the context (or setting) of your above quote, I believe you may have meant to say "beholden" rather than "beholding". Call me picky, but it really does change the meaning of your statement.

"Beholden" means to be committed or obliged to participate, while "beholding" means to only look at or observe something. Ya, I know, very simple and weak words that I am using, but hey, quite in line with our student's capabilities.

Forgive me; I know it must be hard to have someone else express your own thoughts more concisely than you are able to yourself.

Another case in point is your confused use of the words "have" and "of" - for example, " . . . they could of stopped . . ." rather than the correct "they could have stopped . . ." Not a life and death matter by any means, but some do appreciate grammatical accuracy, or more simply, talking and writing the right way.

That being said, we could go a step further and try to improve your understanding of some basic economic concepts. Yes, I know that I am really stepping out now. This is going to require some effort, but try to stay with me. After all, someday this lesson may come in handy if you ever happen to find yourself behind the banker's desk with more than a broom or mop in your hands.

When a country, "U" for example, likes to export product unhindered into country "C", but does not want to allow country "C" to freely export product back into country "U", it is called isolationism.The story of protectionism and isolationism is this - "Protectionism is the practice of imposing duties on the goods imported from another country, "C", in order to protect the domestic industry in country "U". Isolationism is 1) - "a government policy based on the belief that national interests are best served by avoiding economic and political alliances with other countries", or 2) – "electronic ambient music that is generally produced without beats, creating a soothing ambience with unusual sounds" (Encarta dictionary [with a few editorial enhancements] online, cited so you don't get a not in your nickers)

Now when trying to decide which of the 2 definitions of "isolationism" are most applicable in this case, we can quite easily see that your stance on beef trade has some "unusual sounds", but definitely does NOT create a "soothing ambience", so we are unhappily left with the first definition offered by Encarta.

Which happens to describe you and your rcalf buddies perfectly. Unfortunately for you, your country also likes our cheap, plentiful and easily accessible oil so you NEED TRADE, don't you! :)

And don't try to tell us that you are concerned about the safety issue when you have been statistically proven to have fed 2600 head of BSE ridden cattle (if I may borrow oldtimer's words yet again) to the American consumer including your school kids through the school lunch program.

Well S-sandy, there is much more that could be added to this lesson but if you actually manage to understand what we have covered today, you will have come a long way baby! :)
 
I appreciate your constructive critizism, I'm sure you have my best interests at heart.

I am not against trade, and I am not against trade agreements. I'm against agreements that are not allowed under the Constitution. Just follow the flipping law, please. I don't understand why that causes so much consternation.

I'm not a free trader. I don't think that we should be able to export unhindered into your country, nor you into ours. I think that it is the duties of both of our governments to decide what does and does not come into our countries. You don't allow just anybody into your home, we shouldn't just allow anything into our nations. Trade should not trump common sense. This global free trade crap is just a device for the big to get bigger at the expense of everybody else.

Now, who statictically proved that we fed 2600 head of BSE positives to our people?
 
Sandhusker said:
I appreciate your constructive critizism, I'm sure you have my best interests at heart.

I am not against trade, and I am not against trade agreements. I'm against agreements that are not allowed under the Constitution. Just follow the flipping law, please. I don't understand why that causes so much consternation.

I'm not a free trader. I don't think that we should be able to export unhindered into your country, nor you into ours. I think that it is the duties of both of our governments to decide what does and does not come into our countries. You don't allow just anybody into your home, we shouldn't just allow anything into our nations. Trade should not trump common sense. This global free trade crap is just a device for the big to get bigger at the expense of everybody else.

Now, who statictically proved that we fed 2600 head of BSE positives to our people?

Well, you could look up some of the work done by Dr. Paul Brown. Would he have any credibility? I can no longer find the link to the article in which he laid out his extrapolations to arrive at that number. But hey, I wouldn't worry about it. He only sat in a big chair at the CDC for a number of years.

It is interesting to read of his changing view of the risk factor after a mere 6 - 8 years of research. It is not funny and I sincerely hope he is wrong.
 
All this conversation as the US automakers are declined of their bid to get taxpayer money, and Walmart makes record profit!


Free trade, cross border trade, what is it that the US citizen wants?

They are showing it with their purchases. Good luck US, you'll need it!
 
burnt said:
Sandhusker said:
I appreciate your constructive critizism, I'm sure you have my best interests at heart.

I am not against trade, and I am not against trade agreements. I'm against agreements that are not allowed under the Constitution. Just follow the flipping law, please. I don't understand why that causes so much consternation.

I'm not a free trader. I don't think that we should be able to export unhindered into your country, nor you into ours. I think that it is the duties of both of our governments to decide what does and does not come into our countries. You don't allow just anybody into your home, we shouldn't just allow anything into our nations. Trade should not trump common sense. This global free trade crap is just a device for the big to get bigger at the expense of everybody else.

Now, who statictically proved that we fed 2600 head of BSE positives to our people?

Well, you could look up some of the work done by Dr. Paul Brown. Would he have any credibility? I can no longer find the link to the article in which he laid out his extrapolations to arrive at that number. But hey, I wouldn't worry about it. He only sat in a big chair at the CDC for a number of years.

It is interesting to read of his changing view of the risk factor after a mere 6 - 8 years of research. It is not funny and I sincerely hope he is wrong.

Never heard of the guy. Has anybody checked his numbers? That's generally how that is done.
 
don said:
if you're going to have a fixed exchange rate who sets it? oh right, you do. what about letting the open and free markets set exchange rates? wouldn't that constitute fair trade in its purest form?
If I'm not mistaken, that is how exchange rates are set now...on the open and free markets...subject to speculators and politics!!!!

Fix $1.00US=$1.00C and then let the open and free markets adjust prices to match fundamentals.

I'm sure there are reasons this won't work...?
 

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