TRADE ....... WHY ?

[gcreekrch]

R-Calf does have a lot of good ideas and policies but not very many of them have any benefit to me as a Canadian cattleman. From an outsiders point of view their biggest problem seems to be their similarities to the KKK in the way they approach things.
For myself political correctness has gotten carried away, I am more likely to step on the whole foot rather than nudge the little toe but unfortunately at times it doesn't get me very far. If R-Calf is so unwilling to give in order to take then I see very little alternative to getting our cow herd to domestic supply in size.
I also feel that had North America as a whole gone to 100% BSE testing (right or wrong) we as producers would be a whole lot better off financially today. :wink:
As far as your reference to BMR, he is in the same boat as I am. That area is so dry the gophers carry a canteen and dependable grain farming is out of the question.
Your reference to him pig farming is quite ironic coming from a fella who lives in the state that has more angora goats than any other. You're pretty dry there, have you got some livestock there you're not telling us about?

 

[HAY MAKER]

R-Calf does have a lot of good ideas and policies but not very many of them have any benefit to me as a Canadian cattleman. From an outsiders point of view their biggest problem seems to be their similarities to the KKK in the way they approach things.
For myself political correctness has gotten carried away, I am more likely to step on the whole foot rather than nudge the little toe but unfortunately at times it doesn't get me very far. If R-Calf is so unwilling to give in order to take then I see very little alternative to getting our cow herd to domestic supply in size.
I also feel that had North America as a whole gone to 100% BSE testing (right or wrong) we as producers would be a whole lot better off financially today. :wink:
As far as your reference to BMR, he is in the same boat as I am. That area is so dry the gophers carry a canteen and dependable grain farming is out of the question.
Your reference to him pig farming is quite ironic coming from a fella who lives in the state that has more angora goats than any other. You're pretty dry there, have you got some livestock there you're not telling us about?

You wont find any goats on any of my land,believe ole elmo is right when he said only thing dumber than a goat is his owner,course ole big dummie wont agree,rumor has it he likes mohair woolies, me I caint stand the smell of em,damn things smell worse than a packing house before the pure food law went into effect..................good luck

 

[Kato]

Kato- I supported NAFTA when it first came up- thinking what a perfect situation with many states close to Canada sitting with lots of cattle- and Canada sitting there with lots of grain/barley production and feedlots...Many others thought the same...Then Canada pooped on our heads with their "All US CATTLE ARE DISEASED" restrictions... Between that and our monetary valuation differences ( which along with differing laws and social costs is one of the drawbacks of any trade agreements) the trade of these cattle never got started--Canada set a precedent of 2 seperate and distinct herds- and the rest is history...

I truly believe that if Canadians hadn't crapped in their nest and trade in these cattle into Canadian feedlots had occurred the cattle/beef industry would have become so intertwined that M-COOL may not have came about-- or at least wouldn't have been so heavily supported/pushed by neighboring states....

Ah ha! Now I get it. It's making sense now. Now I see why you're so upset over the anaplasmosis/bluetongue thing. You were looking forward to sending calves here to be fed, cheap, and the paperwork got in the way.

You say we 'pooped in our nest" by actually feeding cattle here ourselves instead of feeding your cattle for you! How dare we try and compete! How dare we feed our own cattle here instead of American cattle.

Shame on us.

I smell some sour grapes here.

 

[Anonymous]

Kato- I supported NAFTA when it first came up- thinking what a perfect situation with many states close to Canada sitting with lots of cattle- and Canada sitting there with lots of grain/barley production and feedlots...Many others thought the same...Then Canada pooped on our heads with their "All US CATTLE ARE DISEASED" restrictions... Between that and our monetary valuation differences ( which along with differing laws and social costs is one of the drawbacks of any trade agreements) the trade of these cattle never got started--Canada set a precedent of 2 seperate and distinct herds- and the rest is history...

I truly believe that if Canadians hadn't crapped in their nest and trade in these cattle into Canadian feedlots had occurred the cattle/beef industry would have become so intertwined that M-COOL may not have came about-- or at least wouldn't have been so heavily supported/pushed by neighboring states....

Ah ha! Now I get it. It's making sense now. Now I see why you're so upset over the anaplasmosis/bluetongue thing. You were looking forward to sending calves here to be fed, cheap, and the paperwork got in the way.

You say we 'pooped in our nest" by actually feeding cattle here ourselves instead of feeding your cattle for you! How dare we try and compete! How dare we feed our own cattle here instead of American cattle.

Shame on us.

I smell some sour grapes here.

Not from me.....No it was NAFTA that said trade was supposed to go both ways- and it was Canadians that put on protectionist restrictions and turned it into 1 way trade- all headed south, while US ranchers watched the trucks drive by as they went broke...
And then when the border was closed to Canadian cattle- US producers saw RECORD HIGH PRICES- and realized the impact of this 1 way trade- and now that cattle prices have dropped so low some can't survive again- you again hear the imports being brought up constantly....

 

[burnt]

oldtimer you are one sickening old liar and spin doctor. Go back to your bottle and drown yourself.

Macon, how can you consider this board to have any credibility with someone as demented as that old fart as a moderator?

 

[Anonymous]

oldtimer you are one sickening old liar and spin doctor. Go back to your bottle and drown yourself.

Macon, how can you consider this board to have any credibility with someone as demented as that old fart as a moderator?

Well burnt- if you think that the anaplas/blue tongue rule didn't sit sourly with many down here- and lose Canadian producers/NAFTA a lot of sympathy with the way it was handled- you better think again...

Especially after 10+ years of the US trying to get it dropped- miracally after Canada gets its teat in a wringer with BSE and will do anything to get trade going south again- all the US cattle are cured and much of the restrictions dropped :shock:

If you can't live with the fact- then spin it anyway you want to in your mind- but I know what a lot of people have commented....

 

[Denny]

Does anyone else find it interesting that Tyson and Cargill are refusing to process Canadian cattle in the USA when they process the majority of Canadian cattle in Canada?

They're so busy slaughtering cows up here that they don't need fats. According to a local trucker, after the bred cow sales up here the trucks are finding that about 80% of the cows sold are being shipped for slaughter. Guys have hit the wall, and they're getting out of the business as fast as they can. All the bred cow sales here are booked into the new year already. The top bred cow in one recent sale went straight to the packers, so you can imagine most of the rest of the cows in that sale did too. By this time next year no one is sure how many will be left in the business. It's being decimated. That's the only word for it.

Two of our closest neighbour's herds left this week. One has found work in Alberta, and the other switched to grain. That leaves only two in the immediate neighbourhood with cattle, one of them being us.

How long before the packers leave too? I can see them staying until something needs an expensive upgrade, and then it's game over. Either they will go on government welfare to pay for it, or they will leave.

Are Canadian cattle or beef being stopped?...by whom?

They're not being stopped. ... yet. But pigs are. A lot of hog processers are refusing Canadian hogs, and the uncertainty that we are living with whether the beef processors will do the same thing is what's hurting us. The discounts applied to that uncertainty are significant, especially in the feeder markets. Everyone with ties to the U.S. are sitting on their hands waiting.

In the meantime cattle producers are going broke.

What do they feed the wee little piggies up there.Corn?imported corn? We live a 100 miles north of the corn belt and is does'nt pencil to raise hogs here if you can't access cheap feed for hogs it is a looseing proposition no matter the market.My family raised hogs in southern minnesota in corn country that worked as we had alot off corn acres but once we moved to the woods that does'nt they won't do good on hay.Another news flash hog producers here are also going broke when the cost of production exceeds the sale price it's a loss.Maybe killing the sows and going another route is best for some hog producers.Fat hogs here are $38 a hundred no profit maker there..

 

[cowzilla]

I'm beginning to be more of the opinion that the sooner we get our cattle herd shrunk to service domestic demand, the better off we will be. Then shut the imports off.
I hope they keep killing cows off at this rate for another year or two. I like buying young bred cows for $4-500.

So what percent of your herd are you going to dispose of to reach your goal of meeting domestic usage only?

I'm not, my neighbors across this country are doing it for me. All I have to do is hang on till it turns around. :wink:
A big majority of the folks that are bailing out now bought in when cattle were high and grain was down. Now the reverse is happening, it's called the cattle cycle. I just wish grain farmers would stick to the crop they know best and leave cattle alone. At least their land is capable of producing another crop.
My other crop would be jack-pines and I won't live long enough to harvest a crop.

Hard-headed? Narrow Minded? Self Serving? Yep. Just like most of us in agriculture.

Most of if not all the grain guys got rid of their cattle a few years ago around here. 80% of cow disspersals here are guys in the bussiness for 20 years or more. Guess that just means not as many American built loader tractors balers and those shiney stock trailers will be sold :roll:

With the east west movement instead of the north south movement what will this cost the consumer when they purchase beef. Freight will be higher on both sides of the border will it not ?

 

[Anonymous]

Some interesting comments about trade and NAFTA came up yesterday in the hearing on the $25 Billion bailout the Big 3 auto makers want....Besides the comments about each one of the Executives flying from Detroit to D.C. in each ones private corporate jet costing $20,000+ rather than a $500 roundtrip commercial ticket-- it was brought up that some of the auto companies while closing plants or cutting back on workers in the US were making two complete cars in Mexico and another in Canada- and in some cases were expanding these workforces...

As one Congressman asked the auto execs- How much of this $25 Billion you need is Canadian and Mexican taxpayers going to pay :???:
Do you think American workers and taxpayers should bail out jobs in Mexico and Canada :???:

Another Congressman brought up the fact that the automakers were taking $Millions to expand their investments in China-- which the Big 3 Execs answered by saying that they were trying to expand their market in China and China requires you invest in and build in their country in order to market there.....
Which led the Congressman to respond that could it be possible that the inequities in these one sided Free trade agreements thats causing the economic turmoil the industry and the country are in :???: And should we be looking more toward FAIR trade agreements with these countries :???:

 

[don]

don't worry they're at the trough up here, too. extortion knows no borders.

 

[Kato]

Some interesting comments about trade and NAFTA came up yesterday in the hearing on the $25 Billion bailout the Big 3 auto makers want....Besides the comments about each one of the Executives flying from Detroit to D.C. in each ones private corporate jet costing $20,000+ rather than a $500 roundtrip commercial ticket-- it was brought up that some of the auto companies while closing plants or cutting back on workers in the US were making two complete cars in Mexico and another in Canada- and in some cases were expanding these workforces...

Gee! A whole car! Imagine that! Compared to how many Ford, GM and Chrysler vehicles are on the road in Canada, it's a drop in the bucket. A fact conveniently forgotten. The truck we drive came from Pontiac Michigan, but no one complains about that up here.

As one Congressman asked the auto execs- How much of this $25 Billion you need is Canadian and Mexican taxpayers going to pay Say what?
Do you think American workers and taxpayers should bail out jobs in Mexico and Canada Say what?

Actually, they are also asking the Canadian government for help. Besides, what no one seems to think about is that these companies are asking for loans. You remember what those are? They are meant to be paid back. Unlike the money the banks got with no oversight.....

Another Congressman brought up the fact that the automakers were taking $Millions to expand their investments in China-- which the Big 3 Execs answered by saying that they were trying to expand their market in China and China requires you invest in and build in their country in order to market there.....

But if a Chinese company was required to invest and build in the U.S., there would probably be a hue and cry over how they were coming in to take over the country. :roll:

Which led the Congressman to respond that could it be possible that the inequities in these one sided Free trade agreements thats causing the economic turmoil the industry and the country are in Say what? And should we be looking more toward FAIR trade agreements with these countries Say what?

I agree with that one, except that in the opinions of most of those on the other end of American free trade agreements, the fair part applies more to the U.S. already.

One sided is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Shaft]

Which led the Congressman to respond that could it be possible that the inequities in these one sided Free trade agreements thats causing the economic turmoil the industry and the country are in And should we be looking more toward FAIR trade agreements with these countries

The Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act (sometimes known as the Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act) was an act signed into law on June 17, 1930, that raised U.S. tariffs on over 20,000 imported goods to record levels. In the United States 1,028 economists signed a petition against this legislation, and after it was passed, many countries retaliated with their own increased tariffs on U.S. goods, and American exports and imports plunged by more than half. In the opinion of most economists, the Smoot-Hawley Act was a catalyst for the severe reduction in U.S.-European trade from its high in 1929 to its depressed levels of 1932 that accompanied the start of the Great Depression.

"Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it"; aka the ready, fire, aim approach. Here we go again.

 

[hillsdown]

As one Congressman asked the auto execs- How much of this $25 Billion you need is Canadian and Mexican taxpayers going to pay
Do you think American workers and taxpayers should bail out jobs in Mexico and Canada

I will tell you one thing, Canada had not better put in one f@ck'n penny to bail out some god damn dirty Americans who pilfer and steel from their own coorporations ,and expect honest hard working tax payers to bail them out.

Let them close ,if they sold their jets and got rid of all the fluff they could bail out their own companies..

 

[Sandhusker]

Which led the Congressman to respond that could it be possible that the inequities in these one sided Free trade agreements thats causing the economic turmoil the industry and the country are in And should we be looking more toward FAIR trade agreements with these countries

The Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act (sometimes known as the Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act) was an act signed into law on June 17, 1930, that raised U.S. tariffs on over 20,000 imported goods to record levels. In the United States 1,028 economists signed a petition against this legislation, and after it was passed, many countries retaliated with their own increased tariffs on U.S. goods, and American exports and imports plunged by more than half. In the opinion of most economists, the Smoot-Hawley Act was a catalyst for the severe reduction in U.S.-European trade from its high in 1929 to its depressed levels of 1932 that accompanied the start of the Great Depression.

"Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it"; aka the ready, fire, aim approach. Here we go again.

How does fair trade have to do with tariffs?

 

[Shaft]

How does fair trade have to do with tariffs?

Well Sandy old boy, fair trade, aka free trade, violates the US Constitution according to you, so what else did you have in mind if not tariffs?

NAFTA eliminated tariffs, that's all. If it isn't too much trouble, would you mind letting me know just exactly what Article of the Constitution you claim NAFTA violates? I can't seem to find it in my copy.

 

[Anonymous]

How does fair trade have to do with tariffs?

Well Sandy old boy, fair trade, aka free trade, violates the US Constitution according to you, so what else did you have in mind if not tariffs?

NAFTA eliminated tariffs, that's all. If it isn't too much trouble, would you mind letting me know just exactly what Article of the Constitution you claim NAFTA violates? I can't seem to find it in my copy.

NAFTA was never ratified by the Senate- which is Constitutionally required of all treaties with a foreign country....

 

[Shaft]

NAFTA was never ratified by the Senate- which is Constitutionally required of all treaties with a foreign country....

Well OT, hate to break it to you but here's a news flash from Section 8 of Article 1:

"[1] The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; ...
[3] To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes..."

Care to try again? Congress regulates trade with 'foreign nations', not the Senate. NAFTA ain't no peace treaty OT, it is a trade agreement. What else ya got?

 

[Sandhusker]

Shaft, would you care to explain to us the difference between Congress and the Senate?

BTW, my 12 year old daughter got a good laugh out of your comment.

 

[Sandhusker]

How does fair trade have to do with tariffs?

Well Sandy old boy, fair trade, aka free trade, violates the US Constitution according to you, so what else did you have in mind if not tariffs?

NAFTA eliminated tariffs, that's all. If it isn't too much trouble, would you mind letting me know just exactly what Article of the Constitution you claim NAFTA violates? I can't seem to find it in my copy.

I never said that free trade violates the consititution - and free trade is not the same as fair trade.

 

[cowzilla]

How does fair trade have to do with tariffs?

Well Sandy old boy, fair trade, aka free trade, violates the US Constitution according to you, so what else did you have in mind if not tariffs?

NAFTA eliminated tariffs, that's all. If it isn't too much trouble, would you mind letting me know just exactly what Article of the Constitution you claim NAFTA violates? I can't seem to find it in my copy.

NAFTA was never ratified by the Senate- which is Constitutionally required of all treaties with a foreign country....

That just means your Senate has no clout because the deal went through anyway. Hell if we had to rely on our Senate for progress you would still have to take the Stagecoach from Winnipeg to Calgary and our GM employees would be cutting trees for the wheels :roll: