Voluntary BSE testing for animals over 20 months

[TimH]

Tell me how the TUBE can be easily cleaned when Surgical instruments have supposedly passed on CJD after being in a autoclave?

Inactivation of Prions by Acidic Sodium Dodecyl Sulfate
David Peretz ,1,2,{dagger},{ddagger} Surachai Supattapone,1,2,{dagger},§ Kurt Giles,1,2,{dagger} Julie Vergara,1 Yevgeniy Freyman,1 Pierre Lessard,1 Jiri G. Safar,1,2 David V. Glidden,3 Charles McCulloch,3 Hoang-Oanh B. Nguyen,1 Michael Scott,1,2,|| Stephen J. DeArmond,1,4 and Stanley B. Prusiner1,2,5*

Institute for Neurodegenerative Diseases,1 Departments of Neurology,2 Epidemiology and Biostatistics,3 Pathology,4 Biochemistry and Biophysics, University of California San Francisco, San Francisco, California 941435

Received 14 March 2005/ Accepted 16 September 2005

Prompted by the discovery that prions become protease-sensitive after exposure to branched polyamine dendrimers in acetic acid (AcOH) (S. Supattapone, H. Wille, L. Uyechi, J. Safar, P. Tremblay, F. C. Szoka, F. E. Cohen, S. B. Prusiner, and M. R. Scott, J. Virol. 75:3453-3461, 2001), we investigated the inactivation of prions by sodium dodecyl sulfate (SDS) in weak acid. As judged by sensitivity to proteolytic digestion, the disease-causing prion protein (PrPSc) was denatured at room temperature by SDS at pH values of ≤4.5 or ≥10. Exposure of Sc237 prions in Syrian hamster brain homogenates to 1% SDS and 0.5% AcOH at room temperature resulted in a reduction of prion titer by a factor of ca. 107; however, all of the bioassay hamsters eventually developed prion disease. When various concentrations of SDS and AcOH were tested, the duration and temperature of exposure acted synergistically to inactivate both hamster Sc237 prions and human sporadic Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (sCJD) prions. The inactivation of prions in brain homogenates and those bound to stainless steel wires was evaluated by using bioassays in transgenic mice. sCJD prions were more than 100,000 times more resistant to inactivation than Sc237 prions, demonstrating that inactivation procedures validated on rodent prions cannot be extrapolated to inactivation of human prions. Some procedures that significantly reduced prion titers in brain homogenates had a limited effect on prions bound to the surface of stainless steel wires. Using acidic SDS combined with autoclaving for 15 min, human sCJD prions bound to stainless steel wires were eliminated. Our findings form the basis for a noncorrosive system that is suitable for inactivating prions on surgical instruments, as well as on other medical and dental equipment.[/quote


So your trying to tell me that a plastic or rubber tube can be cleaned chute side and not cross contaminate. How does that work for the chain of custody you talk about?]

I took the liberty of putting all the "pertinent" :roll: parts of that study in bold. :lol:
Prusiner et al, are simply looking for another worthless procedure that they can patent. :roll:$$$$$$$$$$ :roll:
15 minutes in an autoclave would tend to slow the chain speed on the slaughter-line would it not??? :lol:
Hardly the quick shpritz with "Mr.Clean" that bse-tester implied!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[bse-tester]

Beefman wrote:

Tell me how the TUBE can be easily cleaned when Surgical instruments have supposedly passed on CJD after being in a autoclave?

They do not use a medium strength acid wash followed by a 100% bleach rinse which is in turn followed by a water rinse. Look, cross-contamination is right in the forefront of our concerns. The chain of custody is paramount. Sterilizing the tube is something that has been booted around for a long time in order to find a way in which to do it and be sure it is done completely. A mild acid, strong enough to disolve the outer skin of an orange will certainly destroy anything that even remotely resembles a protein, even prion protein. This is then followed by a dip into a 100% bleach solution and then rinsed with cold clean water. We tested, a number of times, the tube after running urine through it and found we had to tweak the acid solution until nothing was found in subsequent testing. We then decided that it made sense to follow up with a cleansing rinse in bleach and then a rinse in water to clean away all traces of the previous solutions. It worked. So I hope that answers the "Mr. Clean" comment??


It is also important to note hat we prefer to take samples with a syringe. At least that way we elliminate the cleaning of the tube and can then dispose of the needles after each sample is taken directly from the bladder. Besides, after prolonged exposure to acids, the tube has a significantly reduced life!!!

 

[Econ101]

Inactivation of Prions by Acidic Sodium Dodecyl Sulfate
David Peretz ,1,2,{dagger},{ddagger} Surachai Supattapone,1,2,{dagger},§ Kurt Giles,1,2,{dagger} Julie Vergara,1 Yevgeniy Freyman,1 Pierre Lessard,1 Jiri G. Safar,1,2 David V. Glidden,3 Charles McCulloch,3 Hoang-Oanh B. Nguyen,1 Michael Scott,1,2,|| Stephen J. DeArmond,1,4 and Stanley B. Prusiner1,2,5*

Institute for Neurodegenerative Diseases,1 Departments of Neurology,2 Epidemiology and Biostatistics,3 Pathology,4 Biochemistry and Biophysics, University of California San Francisco, San Francisco, California 941435

Received 14 March 2005/ Accepted 16 September 2005

Prompted by the discovery that prions become protease-sensitive after exposure to branched polyamine dendrimers in acetic acid (AcOH) (S. Supattapone, H. Wille, L. Uyechi, J. Safar, P. Tremblay, F. C. Szoka, F. E. Cohen, S. B. Prusiner, and M. R. Scott, J. Virol. 75:3453-3461, 2001), we investigated the inactivation of prions by sodium dodecyl sulfate (SDS) in weak acid. As judged by sensitivity to proteolytic digestion, the disease-causing prion protein (PrPSc) was denatured at room temperature by SDS at pH values of ≤4.5 or ≥10. Exposure of Sc237 prions in Syrian hamster brain homogenates to 1% SDS and 0.5% AcOH at room temperature resulted in a reduction of prion titer by a factor of ca. 107; however, all of the bioassay hamsters eventually developed prion disease. When various concentrations of SDS and AcOH were tested, the duration and temperature of exposure acted synergistically to inactivate both hamster Sc237 prions and human sporadic Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (sCJD) prions. The inactivation of prions in brain homogenates and those bound to stainless steel wires was evaluated by using bioassays in transgenic mice. sCJD prions were more than 100,000 times more resistant to inactivation than Sc237 prions, demonstrating that inactivation procedures validated on rodent prions cannot be extrapolated to inactivation of human prions. Some procedures that significantly reduced prion titers in brain homogenates had a limited effect on prions bound to the surface of stainless steel wires. Using acidic SDS combined with autoclaving for 15 min, human sCJD prions bound to stainless steel wires were eliminated. Our findings form the basis for a noncorrosive system that is suitable for inactivating prions on surgical instruments, as well as on other medical and dental equipment.[/quote


So your trying to tell me that a plastic or rubber tube can be cleaned chute side and not cross contaminate. How does that work for the chain of custody you talk about?]

I took the liberty of putting all the "pertinent" :roll: parts of that study in bold. :lol:
Prusiner et al, are simply looking for another worthless procedure that they can patent. :roll:$$$$$$$$$$ :roll:
15 minutes in an autoclave would tend to slow the chain speed on the slaughter-line would it not??? :lol:
Hardly the quick shpritz with "Mr.Clean" that bse-tester implied!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

When it comes to food safety, timh, who cares if the packers have to retool or reorganize to produce a safe product? It seems you are looking for efficiency in the place of food safety. Usually with that kind of thinking, you get neither.

It seems everyone is trying to cater to packers needs. If packers are producing beef carcasses out of beef animals, why can't they be the ones that provide for the beef safety? Creekstone was willing to.

If the packers have produced low margins/costs by sacrificing some of the things that might allow for better food safety. Should they not have anyone but themselves to blame for that?

 

[TimH]

Beefman wrote:

Tell me how the TUBE can be easily cleaned when Surgical instruments have supposedly passed on CJD after being in a autoclave?

They do not use a medium strength acid wash followed by a 100% bleach rinse which is in turn followed by a water rinse. Look, cross-contamination is right in the forefront of our concerns. The chain of custody is paramount. Sterilizing the tube is something that has been booted around for a long time in order to find a way in which to do it and be sure it is done completely. A mild acid, strong enough to disolve the outer skin of an orange will certainly destroy anything that even remotely resembles a protein, even prion protein. This is then followed by a dip into a 100% bleach solution and then rinsed with cold clean water. We tested, a number of times, the tube after running urine through it and found we had to tweak the acid solution until nothing was found in subsequent testing. We then decided that it made sense to follow up with a cleansing rinse in bleach and then a rinse in water to clean away all traces of the previous solutions. It worked. So I hope that answers the "Mr. Clean" comment??


It is also important to note hat we prefer to take samples with a syringe. At least that way we elliminate the cleaning of the tube and can then dispose of the needles after each sample is taken directly from the bladder. Besides, after prolonged exposure to acids, the tube has a significantly reduced life!!!

"PrPsc is scary enough but to have it in an uncontrolled or loosely guarded environment is way too scary. Ron."-

Pretty "scary" stuff if a MILD acid solution and a little bleach is all it takes to destroy it. :roll: :roll:
But somehow it survives high temperature rendering processes, can survive in the soil for a period of time, and has ben described ,by some, as the "indestructible prion". :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: AMAZING!!
Oh, I get it Ron, it is easy to kill on your testing gear, but is invisible and bullet-proof everywhere else. :lol:
Did you find your Easter eggs yet???? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[TimH]

Econ-101 wrote-

"When it comes to food safety, timh, who cares if the packers have to retool or reorganize to produce a safe product?"

In your opinion Econ, is BSE testing a food safety issue, or is it a marketing tool???

--------"....who cares if the packers have to retool or reorganize..."
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Most thinking cattle producers know and care that any upstream costs will eventually be passed down to them in the form of lower cattle prices.
Are you a thinking cattle producer Econ??? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Econ101]

Econ-101 wrote-

"When it comes to food safety, timh, who cares if the packers have to retool or reorganize to produce a safe product?"

In your opinion Econ, is BSE testing a food safety issue, or is it a marketing tool???

--------"....who cares if the packers have to retool or reorganize..."
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Most thinking cattle producers know and care that any upstream costs will eventually be passed down to them in the form of lower cattle prices.
Are you a thinking cattle producer Econ??? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

TimH, the only way to get that kind of thinking out of your head is to make the poultry industry pay for its upstream costs by the consumers, not the producers. You have done that in Canada, our system in the U.S. has not. If poultry and beef went up in price at the same time and so did pork, the corresponding increase in demand would likely be the same with an increase in the way Agman calculates demand across the board depending on the way measured.

Think outside the box!!!

If you don't think the packer lead USDA ID system isn't already going to cost, you have another thing coming.

It is funny that you take it for granted in almost every industry other than agriculture these increased costs are taken on the other end but that in agriculture they will be taken on producer's end. It is a losing paradigm you present from the start. I don't buy into it.

If bse ever becomes an issue (and I hope it doesn't but to some it alread has) in the U.S. via human transmission, the investment in bse testing would be a boon to those who were doing it. That is the beauty of real free markets. Decisions that some would think were losers turn out to be winners. We don't need a totalitarian like govt. to dictate those decisions through packer influence in the USDA insteasd of the free market working.

 

[TimH]

Econ-101 wrote-

"When it comes to food safety, timh, who cares if the packers have to retool or reorganize to produce a safe product?"

In your opinion Econ, is BSE testing a food safety issue, or is it a marketing tool???

--------"....who cares if the packers have to retool or reorganize..."
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Most thinking cattle producers know and care that any upstream costs will eventually be passed down to them in the form of lower cattle prices.
Are you a thinking cattle producer Econ??? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

TimH, the only way to get that kind of thinking out of your head is to make the poultry industry pay for its upstream costs by the consumers, not the producers. You have done that in Canada, our system in the U.S. has not. If poultry and beef went up in price at the same time and so did pork, the corresponding increase in demand would likely be the same with an increase in the way Agman calculates demand across the board depending on the way measured.

Think outside the box!!!

If you don't think the packer lead USDA ID system isn't already going to cost, you have another thing coming.

It is funny that you take it for granted in almost every industry other than agriculture these increased costs are taken on the other end but that in agriculture they will be taken on producer's end. It is a losing paradigm you present from the start. I don't buy into it.

If bse ever becomes an issue (and I hope it doesn't but to some it alread has) in the U.S. via human transmission, the investment in bse testing would be a boon to those who were doing it. That is the beauty of real free markets. Decisions that some would think were losers turn out to be winners. We don't need a totalitarian like govt. to dictate those decisions through packer influence in the USDA insteasd of the free market working.

You tout the value of supply management and then mention the free market in the same post!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I may have to go lay down for a while until my side stops hurting!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Econ101]

Econ-101 wrote-


In your opinion Econ, is BSE testing a food safety issue, or is it a marketing tool???

--------"....who cares if the packers have to retool or reorganize..."
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Most thinking cattle producers know and care that any upstream costs will eventually be passed down to them in the form of lower cattle prices.
Are you a thinking cattle producer Econ??? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

TimH, the only way to get that kind of thinking out of your head is to make the poultry industry pay for its upstream costs by the consumers, not the producers. You have done that in Canada, our system in the U.S. has not. If poultry and beef went up in price at the same time and so did pork, the corresponding increase in demand would likely be the same with an increase in the way Agman calculates demand across the board depending on the way measured.

Think outside the box!!!

If you don't think the packer lead USDA ID system isn't already going to cost, you have another thing coming.

It is funny that you take it for granted in almost every industry other than agriculture these increased costs are taken on the other end but that in agriculture they will be taken on producer's end. It is a losing paradigm you present from the start. I don't buy into it.

If bse ever becomes an issue (and I hope it doesn't but to some it alread has) in the U.S. via human transmission, the investment in bse testing would be a boon to those who were doing it. That is the beauty of real free markets. Decisions that some would think were losers turn out to be winners. We don't need a totalitarian like govt. to dictate those decisions through packer influence in the USDA insteasd of the free market working.

You tout the value of supply management and then mention the free market in the same post!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I may have to go lay down for a while until my side stops hurting!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Supply management by poultry farmers in Canada has not allowed the processors to have the upper hand and cheat the farmers. The US system of relying on GIPSA to competently enforce the PSA to get those results has been an utter failure.

I don't personally like supply management, but market power management has been much worse for producers because lack of enforcement of economic protections.

The fact is that some of you Canadians want to push free trade in beef, but you don't practice it at home in poultry. I am not saying that I would want supply management to stop in Canada when it comes to the poultry business, but you are talking out both sides of your mouth. I am only pointing that out, TimH. There is no real north american free trade agreement, it is just a lie to get the deal sold. Look at the lumber issue.

The fact is that relying on the govt. to solve problems or even regulating industries, has been a complete failure when it has come to almost all of the major scandals in the U.S. from the pension failures (due to loopholes in ERISA that Congress did not stop) to Enron, to FDA and drug policy, money has bought out good judgement and govt. working properly.

You need to stop laughing and start thinking, TimH. I am not against you as a producer, I am against the system we have developed that has been rife with failure.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Pretty "scary" stuff if a MILD acid solution and a little bleach is all it takes to destroy it. :roll: :roll:

Tim, do you have any idea how many substances in the world are heat resistance, yet a little spritz of acid will eat them right up? I can think of two in my wife's kitchen right now.

Rod

 

[TimH]

Pretty "scary" stuff if a MILD acid solution and a little bleach is all it takes to destroy it. :roll: :roll:

Tim, do you have any idea how many substances in the world are heat resistance, yet a little spritz of acid will eat them right up? I can think of two in my wife's kitchen right now.

Rod

Rod, as of this very moment, there is mild acid solution in my stomach.It is at work digesting the steak and eggs I had for breakfast. It was a T-bone steak. Probably loaded with SRM. Good thing that mild acids are capable of destroying prions.
I think bovines might just have a little acid in their stomachs, as well.

 

[TimH]

R2 wrote-

This is a terrible post. There are tens of labs working on ways to sterilize surgical instruments to prevent humans from passing on CJD to other humans during surgery, colonoscopy, endoscopy, dental work where instruments are re-used. TimH -- we're talking about HUMAN LIVES here, like my husband who was infected and died leaving young adult children fatherless because such sterilizing agents do not yet exist and certainly did not exist in the 1970s when he had surgery. To attack Prusiner's motives and his person as you like to do is reprehensible when we really are talking about preventing unneccessary and horrible death.

What we really WERE talking about was an effective, fast and inexpensive method of cleaning sampling equipment in a slaughter plant.
You'll have to ask Mike why he brought that study into the discussion.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I think bovines might just have a little acid in their stomachs, as well.

Have they got some bleach in there too, since BSE tester was talking about needing both?

Rod

 

[TimH]

I think bovines might just have a little acid in their stomachs, as well.

Have they got some bleach in there too, since BSE tester was talking about needing both?

Rod

Here is EXACTLY what bse-tester said Rod.........and I quote-

A mild acid, strong enough to disolve the outer skin of an orange will certainly destroy anything that even remotely resembles a protein, even prion protein. This is then followed by a dip into a 100% bleach solution and then rinsed with cold clean water. We tested, a number of times, the tube after running urine through it and found we had to tweak the acid solution until nothing was found in subsequent testing. We then decided that it made sense to follow up with a cleansing rinse in bleach and then a rinse in water to clean away all traces of the previous solutions.

 

[Econ101]

Tim, if you are discounting the dangers of bse infected materials because bse tester says it breaks down in an acid, do you want to eat some?

Do we need to have a warning lable on meat to say not to take antacids while eating meat in case of bse infection or should we limit bse infection in the meat we eat?

I for one applaud the knowledge that this could be easily be cleaned with an acid. It doesn't take away the dangers of it in the food supply; it only helps us understand it better. More knowledge is better. It should not be ridiculed. I hope we can find other chinks in the bse armour so it is not a health threat.

Personally I am sorry this information wasn't known for those who may have contracted the disease through lack of this knowledge.

 

[Jason]

You guys all missed Tim's point?

Bovines have acid in their stomachs.

BSE tester said acid disolves prion protiens.

If that were true feed transmission and amplification of BSE would be impossible.

 

[Anonymous]

You guys all missed Tim's point?

Bovines have acid in their stomachs.

BSE tester said acid disolves prion protiens.

If that were true feed transmission and amplification of BSE would be impossible.

Jason- I know Canada is a backward country :roll: but down here in the states we have many different acids, with varying degrees of strength...

SHEEESH- We bought Canucks books and they still haven't learned how to get them past the outhouse :wink: :lol:

 

[Jason]

Which way is it OT?

Acid disolves prions or not?

 

[Anonymous]

Which way is it OT?

Acid disolves prions or not?

You got me...I haven't been doing the research...But a couple of you looked pretty ignorant arguing stomach acids were the same as industrial acids... :roll: I haven't made a habit of following acids but I know new acids are being found regularly- some of which are billions of times stronger than stomach acid....

 

[TimH]

Which way is it OT?

Acid disolves prions or not?

You got me...I haven't been doing the research...But a couple of you looked pretty ignorant arguing stomach acids were the same as industrial acids... :roll: I haven't made a habit of following acids but I know new acids are being found regularly- some of which are billions of times stronger than stomach acid....

Really Oldtimer. The acid in a human stomach is hydrochloric acid and has a PH level of 1 to 2. Pretty strong stuff. Definitely strong enough to "dissolve the outer skin of an orange" as bse-tester put it.

Done any good "outhouse readin' lately, Oldtimer??

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

You guys all missed Tim's point?

Bovines have acid in their stomachs.

BSE tester said acid disolves prion protiens.

If that were true feed transmission and amplification of BSE would be impossible.

I didn't miss Tim's point, but I didn't make mine clear enough. My point is that Tim isn't a chemist, so he couldn't possibly make any conclusions as to the validity of BSE Tester's claims. Perhaps maybe its the type of acid being used? Some chemicals can be used to break down some substances, but have no effect on others. You'll notice that the hydrocloric acid in the stomach doesn't eat out the stomach itself?

Rod