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What makes a good maternal bull?

G

Grassfarmer

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Joined
Aug 21, 2005
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998
Location
Central Alberta, Canada
Was talking to a good friend in Scotland today, reflecting on the bulls that have bred us the best daughters over the years. The daughters that live into their teens, breed consistently and well. Both our experiences have been that the best bulls in this context have been generally poorer in conformation, particularly lighter of their hind quarters and general muscle development although they usually had good neck muscle development as mature bulls. These bulls were often disappointing and nothing to look at through their growing stages and matured as small to medium sized adults - never the largest. They would often breed steers that were a little below average in quality especially compared to terminal sired calves. Noticeable also were the number of these bulls that bred heavily to the heifer side - often 2/3 of the calves being female.
The biggest, heaviest muscled bulls that were the fast developers and eye catchers have almost always been our biggest disappointments and have left us the most inconsistent heifers.
My question is have other people experienced similar patterns and if so why do the most bull buyers, looking for maternal bulls, still prefer the bigger, heavier muscled bulls that leave the poorer heifers?
 
You know the old saying, when sitting in the church pew, the women
touch at the hips and the men touch at the shoulders...

I've known this for a long time. Thats why Angus was such a maternal
breed. Look at Charolais, Limousin, etc. Those cattle had muscle because
they were used as draft animals in the old country, France, etc. They
were dual purpose animals, bred for pulling and meat, not bred for
maternal characteristics. I've maintained for a long time, when you
put that bigger hip on an angus you lose the maternal.

I guess everyone buys them because they look better.

The ranch we bought in W. Montana was owned by a registerd hereford
man. They tell a story about a bull he owned that he pretty much tried
to keep hidden, but he got wonderful daughters out of this bull. He
was a bull that was bigger in the front. The owner of the bull
maintained that structure showed masculinitiy. He and I visited about this more than once. He knew cattle.
 
Exactly!!!!!!!

Rito 054 is a fairly modern bull that comes to mind,
He was a 3/4 brother to Rito 2100. He never had the
phenotype of 2100, he was smaller almost every where,
including the rear quarter, but 054 daughters were
stunning females. 2100 daughters were pretty darn
plain, and many had bad udders.
 
Yes, I agree - you will note that I did say in my post about the masculine crest in the mature bulls - what is often lacking in these bulls we have used was particularly hind quarter development.
FH your comment about keeping them hidden was spot on - I was discussing that with my friend and we have both experienced that - the bull that wasn't good enough to go to the sale so was sold privately and bred better daughters than the show ring champions that made the big money. I'll tell you that has happened time and again in our breed in the last decade - it really makes me wonder if the wrong ones are being selected most of the time.
 
If you do your homework, you should be able to select the more maternal bulls. I myself won't use a bull if he doesn't have decent muscle development, but yet I feel our cows are as good as any. We select herdsires by the bulls dam and cowline. If the bulls dam and cowline look the part, and act the part, then we may use him if he himself is a standout.

Now after saying that, I have noticed that some of our better cows in the past have been sired by the bulls we use on our heifers.
 
Faster horses said:
Exactly!!!!!!!

Rito 054 is a fairly modern bull that comes to mind,
He was a 3/4 brother to Rito 2100. He never had the
phenotype of 2100, he was smaller almost every where,
including the rear quarter, but 054 daughters were
stunning females. 2100 daughters were pretty darn
plain, and many had bad udders.
Click to expand...

Another bull, from a photo and some breeders opinions, that might be an example of this (very masculine up front and light in the rear quarters) is the PBC FO203 bull who has sired a number of notable cows. This is the bull that OCC is line breeding to through DHD Traveler 6807 and the Cedar Hills 1019 cow. From the photo, that I will scan from a 1983 Angus Journal and post later, he is not a bull that I would be very tempted to use. But you know what they say "beauty is as beauty does". I don't know how many daughters he sired, or what percentage were top cows, because if you get enough progeny from a bull you are bound to get a couple of good females.

(alt+p)[/img]
 
I think the 1019 cow is an 054 daughter. PBC F0203 is a bull
I highly respect. And I still remember Dale Davis saying Rito 707
was the best bull he ever raised. And he had raised a pile of good
bulls when he said that.

O54 put Cedar Hills on the map. Their dispersal sale was well-attended
with some top prices paid, because of breeders wanting that 054
influence.

I remember years ago, seeing some Hereford bulls that were
purchased from Hershey's in SD. Those bulls were massive fronted
and I thought they looked funny. The person who bought them was
a really good cowman, one of the best we ever knew, and he
explained to us then about maternal vs. paternal bulls.

Limousins, Charolais, etc were known as paternal cattle.
Now with the selection tools we have, I'm sure they have been
able to breed for more maternal traits, as BRG mentioned.
But we haven't always had those selection tools at our disposal.

I'm old, remember? :wink: :P :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Rito 707 was anything but narrow assed. A big front end and narrow butt pretty much describes a buffalo or a bucking bull. Not sure how long buffalo cows produced under natural conditions-most up here get more grain than beef cows.
 
Another bull that is in the pedigree of "highly maternal angus cattle" is Candolier Forever 376. I'll post a photo for you to take a look at when I come back in from chores.
 
I don't think you need a buttless wonder to sire good females. My best cows I have are out of an Ideal 1418 son out of a Rito9FB3 daughter. He was with out a doubt the best looking bull I have ever owned. His daughters are going to be 8 this spring and look like 4-6 yr olds. They have my best calves and breed back on time and stay in excellent shape all year long. I had the misfoutune of losing him after one breeding season but I doubt his lack of longevity had anything to do with his conformation as his daughters could live in NR's environment and thrive.There is nothing I hate worse than a narrower chested angular cow whose backbone I can see 12 mos. of the year.

I will agree on one point and yes we can get cows too big I don't think there are too many arguements there.
 
We like 'broody' looking females, too. We dislike the narrow, frail, razor backed wonders. Mr. FH picks bulls with butts, but I pick for maternal, so
we've compromised and our cows turned out pretty good, I think.
But maybe not.

Do you like this cow?

015.jpg


Gee! Green grass!!! Will it ever come again?
 
scancanfor.jpg


Candolier Forever 376 - doesn't look much like a powerhouse bull - not much crest, no much muscle definition or expression. But in the pedigree of "maternal cattle" eg: GDAR Rainmaker 340. He is not the type of bull I prefer, but who knows whether the eye can do an accurate evaluation of his maternal worth.
 
I've kind of just muddled along looking at the bull's dam and going from there-good productive cows usually throw sons that will leave some daughters-FH breed that cow Hereford and sell me the baldie lol.
 
Faster, I like that cow! From this somewhat front-angled photo, it would appear that narrowness is not her downfall. :wink:

Brings to mind a quote by Moto Moto the hippo from the movie Madagascar 2, as he approaches the female of his desire, "Goodness girl, you huge."

Couldn't help myself. :P

HP
 

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