Tumbleweed
Well-known member
so what are the inaccuracies?
What/who is Stop Animal ID.org??????
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Anonymous
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I have individually IDed my calves to match my records and source verified my calves for years with a hot iron brand and signed affidavit of feed, shots given, and areas pastured-- the last 2 or 3 years I added the calving birth dates to the affidavit and have been payed top market price because of it...When I asked the buyers- they said that was PREFERRED- Good enough for me.....
If they want to pay me the cost to put another tag in the ear- I will...
BUT I don't need the US Gubberment mandating a USDA rule that hasn't even been voted on by Congress- and then unilaterally giving it to a Political Action Group (NCBA) to set up, run, and profit from.......
If my State Veterinarian and Board of Livestock deems that more then we have is necessary- fine...Until then I think the USDA has a few more major problems they could be taking care of that the Office of Inspector General thinks they aren't......If their employees even can't figure out their own import-export rules how can they dictate to the cattlemen :???:
If they want to pay me the cost to put another tag in the ear- I will...
BUT I don't need the US Gubberment mandating a USDA rule that hasn't even been voted on by Congress- and then unilaterally giving it to a Political Action Group (NCBA) to set up, run, and profit from.......
If my State Veterinarian and Board of Livestock deems that more then we have is necessary- fine...Until then I think the USDA has a few more major problems they could be taking care of that the Office of Inspector General thinks they aren't......If their employees even can't figure out their own import-export rules how can they dictate to the cattlemen :???:
ocm said:
ocm, sorry, I did read your statement re. M-ID incorrectly.
It really doesn't surprise me that some members of USAHA might be disturbed by something of the nature of NAIS if it might not be directly under their control or oversight.
While NCBA has, I believe, had a reasonably good relationship with them, considering that USAHA is heavy on government veterinarians, many of whom do not easily understand difficulties of complying with some regulations by cattle producers who have large enough herds to provide even a marginal living for the family.
MRJ
mslms
New member
omc, you don't seem to understand what I have written. The ID is going to have to be mandatory to force producers to buy a $2.00 tag and keep better records because they will simply not do it voluntarilly and in return receive a $20.00-$60.00 per head premium. Or as predicted in the future, prevent them from receiving a discount for none IDed animals. With the verified source in place the export market will increase and consumers in the U.S. will continue to purchase more beef because they will feel safer knowing where it came from. The law of supply and demand states that as demand increases more supply is needed which in turn forces prices upwards.
As far as disease outbreaks, if and when a major outbreak occurs of BSE, FMD, Bangs, etc. With immediate traceback, any diseased animals can be traced back quickly to each former owner or location to verify exactly where the disease could have originated and prevent a major nationwide outbreak. I don't know how to explain it any clearer. If someone else out there can explain it any better or differently please feel free to do so.
As far as disease outbreaks, if and when a major outbreak occurs of BSE, FMD, Bangs, etc. With immediate traceback, any diseased animals can be traced back quickly to each former owner or location to verify exactly where the disease could have originated and prevent a major nationwide outbreak. I don't know how to explain it any clearer. If someone else out there can explain it any better or differently please feel free to do so.
Hanta Yo
Well-known member
IMHO, I think source verified cattle will bring a premium for a while - don't know for how long. Then I think cattle not source verified will be discounted and source verified will be in the base price. This will probably force the rest of the producers to comply with some type of ID. I DON'T think it is right to subsidize those who refuse to ID!!! We are premise ID'd this past year and are looking forward to premiums.
Tumbleweed
Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Oldtimer I'm with you on this. I use a hot iron brand and put tags in there ears. I work with the vet to vacinate for all that is necessary to keep the calves and cows in good health because that is in my best interest. I don't need the govament breathing down my neck keeping track of which pasture they are in or who's cattle they are next to and figuring out how much they are going to fine me if my records don't meet their expectations. I think their time would be better spent keeping diseases from coming into this country and also figuring out what causes bse and stopping what ever it is that causes it.
mslms said:
You need to read some of my previous posts. Exports account for less than 10% of our market. We hardly need a mandatory program just to satisfy that much, and if you think it will only cost $2, check out Australia's experience.
The disease tracking capabilities are much overblown. NOBODY has yet to come up with a disease scenario where ID will work better than current programs AND be more cost effective. ID would not be used in a FMD outbreak. Several government officials have admitted it. BSE does not qualify as an "epidemic". Bangs already has a program.
You are talking as if there is nothing being done now that allows traceback. Several states already have very effective (though not individual) traceback ability.
Also, elementary supply and demand says when the supply (of animals
with ID) exceeds the demand (for source verified animals) there will be no premium.
Also, it has been EMPHATICALLY stated by several government officials who have worked with ID that it is SOLELY for animal health. All of this "source verified" stuff IS NOT the same as ID.
In fact there is already sufficient source verified animals (at the fat cattle level) that I know someone who refused to provide source verification because the packer was not going to pay extra for it.
Oldtimer said:
OT, you are up to your usual deceit and lies, I see.
FACT: The new ID group is comprised of representatives of several SPECIES of ANIMALS, NOT representatives of ORGANIZATIONS. NCBA is not part of that ID group and WILL NOT profit from it.
FACT: NCBA is NOT "a Political Action group". NCBA is comprised of two divisions, the Federation of State Beef Councils and the Policy/Membership division, which has a separate PAC, comprised of SOME, but not all members of NCBA.
Sorry you cannot comprehend the broad scope of the interests of some people who are members of NCBA, and that while they may be somewhat related, they do not all involve the same things or the same people.
MRJ
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Anonymous
Guest
MRJ said:
As long as they keep listing the $5,000 per year donations to Bonilla as coming from the NCBA- they are a Political Action Group...Same thing I told the local guys last week that were out going person to person trying to recruit new memberships--Sounds like things are getting tight with NCBA? Membership dropping that much- Eh?
Oldtimer said:
Actually, membership increased last year by around 4,000. It is just that members have committed to working harder to recruit more members since we do not have the auction barn guys doing that for us.
If that $5,000.00 donation (and that is certainly not a big one, given political realities it won't buy much TV advertising time in the next election either) was not listed as being from the NCBA PAC, which is verifiably a separate group, I do not believe it was accurate. In any case, the money WAS NOT checkoff money in any way, shape, or form, as you very well know.
MRJ
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Anonymous
Guest
MRJ said:
You know as well as I do that they list it only as NCBA just like they do with many of the checkoff paid for programs........
MRJ said:
Actually, the information I have from an NCBA member is that membership reported at the convention was 458 members fewer than last year, but they had 4000 new members. I'd guess that means they lost 4500 members they had to replace.
It all depends on how you report it.
I also understand the deal with John Deere which gave members a discount on equipment purchases that exceded membership dues was quite an effective incentive for people to join.
OCM: Also, elementary supply and demand says when the supply (of animals with ID) exceeds the demand (for source verified animals) there will be no premium.
This is definitely true and the basis of one of the frauds within the poultry tournament system that GIPSA refuses to address. One of many.
This is definitely true and the basis of one of the frauds within the poultry tournament system that GIPSA refuses to address. One of many.
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Anonymous
Guest
MRJ wrote:
OCM (in response):
Where was this cost/benefit analysis concern with segregating 5% of our beef as imported at the cost of labeling all beef when consumers are not even asking for it and their shopping preferences already show price being more important to them than Country of Origin????
I would think if you have cost benefit concerns about "M"ID, which has a justifiable basis, those same concerns should apply for an unjustifiable law like "M"COOL.
Typical of your flip flopping ways!
So what is R-CALF's justification????
Where is R-CALF's cost/benefit analysis????
What diseases is R-CALF concerned about tracking that justify this law????
POLICE YOUR OWN OCM!!!!!!!!!
They never asked for a cost/benefit analysis with their "SAVING CONSUMERS FROM THEMSELVES" law???
If you want to know the value of "M"ID, talk to the Canadians. Ask them if "M"ID helped them maintain consumer confidence in their product after their BSE outbreak.
Ask Canada if the benefits are worth the costs.
BESIDES, I THOUGHT R-CULT/OCM SAID THAT CONSUMERS HAD A RIGHT TO KNOW WHERE THEIR BEEF COMES FROM?????
Changing your story again?
Where is your "states rights" concerns with "M"COOL? "M"Price reporting? Captive Supply Reform Act??? and the rest of your government mandate liberal agenda?????
You're such a hypocrite OCM.
What field tests showed it doesn't work??? Those conducted by OCM to prove that it doesn't work??? LOL!
Field tests have shown that "M"ID does work. If it didn't work, you wouldn't have USPB and Angus Gene Net and other alliances paying premiums for source verified cattle. Obviously these progressive alliances didn't need R-CULT's cost/benefit analysis to save them from themselves.
As far as brand laws, our state does not have branding in the Eastern half. Many states do not have brand laws. There is duplicate brands between states. I can see brands being a PART of "M"ID but brands will not be the sole solution. This is typical of the R-CULT mentality of not being able to see this industry past the back of a potload of their own branded cattle.
COOL is only simple to the simple minded that don't have to enforce the stupid law. Once the hide comes off, you are trusting the packers that you supposedly do not trust to label beef correctly with no method of determining whether those "M" and "C" marked cattle ended up in "M" and "C" marked packages of beef.
You USDA critics think you have all the answers with your simple solutions. You hand USDA a stupid unenforceable law demanding proof of where cattle were born, raised and slaughtered but are unwilling to prove where cattle were born, raised, and slaughtered. Then you'll criticize USDA for their inability to enforce the law that you blamers made unenforceable. Typical of the "symbolism over substance" mentality of R-CULT/OCM and their followers.
I do not support a "MANDATORY" ID system. I would much rather see a system where progressive producers were rewarded for their actions while blamers were forced to sell non ID'd commodity beef. Nothing would make me happier than to see the blamers reaping what they sew.
Let me go on record saying that I oppose a government run ID system when the free enterprise system is already source verifying cattle. The federal government can track those cattle that are traceable, and the blamers can reap what they sew with non traceable cattle. Further seperation between progressive and regressive, I LOVE IT!
~SH~
OCM (in response):
Where was this cost/benefit analysis concern with segregating 5% of our beef as imported at the cost of labeling all beef when consumers are not even asking for it and their shopping preferences already show price being more important to them than Country of Origin????
I would think if you have cost benefit concerns about "M"ID, which has a justifiable basis, those same concerns should apply for an unjustifiable law like "M"COOL.
Typical of your flip flopping ways!
So what is R-CALF's justification????
Where is R-CALF's cost/benefit analysis????
What diseases is R-CALF concerned about tracking that justify this law????
POLICE YOUR OWN OCM!!!!!!!!!
They never asked for a cost/benefit analysis with their "SAVING CONSUMERS FROM THEMSELVES" law???
If you want to know the value of "M"ID, talk to the Canadians. Ask them if "M"ID helped them maintain consumer confidence in their product after their BSE outbreak.
Ask Canada if the benefits are worth the costs.
BESIDES, I THOUGHT R-CULT/OCM SAID THAT CONSUMERS HAD A RIGHT TO KNOW WHERE THEIR BEEF COMES FROM?????
Changing your story again?
Where is your "states rights" concerns with "M"COOL? "M"Price reporting? Captive Supply Reform Act??? and the rest of your government mandate liberal agenda?????
You're such a hypocrite OCM.
What field tests showed it doesn't work??? Those conducted by OCM to prove that it doesn't work??? LOL!
Field tests have shown that "M"ID does work. If it didn't work, you wouldn't have USPB and Angus Gene Net and other alliances paying premiums for source verified cattle. Obviously these progressive alliances didn't need R-CULT's cost/benefit analysis to save them from themselves.
As far as brand laws, our state does not have branding in the Eastern half. Many states do not have brand laws. There is duplicate brands between states. I can see brands being a PART of "M"ID but brands will not be the sole solution. This is typical of the R-CULT mentality of not being able to see this industry past the back of a potload of their own branded cattle.
COOL is only simple to the simple minded that don't have to enforce the stupid law. Once the hide comes off, you are trusting the packers that you supposedly do not trust to label beef correctly with no method of determining whether those "M" and "C" marked cattle ended up in "M" and "C" marked packages of beef.
You USDA critics think you have all the answers with your simple solutions. You hand USDA a stupid unenforceable law demanding proof of where cattle were born, raised and slaughtered but are unwilling to prove where cattle were born, raised, and slaughtered. Then you'll criticize USDA for their inability to enforce the law that you blamers made unenforceable. Typical of the "symbolism over substance" mentality of R-CULT/OCM and their followers.
I do not support a "MANDATORY" ID system. I would much rather see a system where progressive producers were rewarded for their actions while blamers were forced to sell non ID'd commodity beef. Nothing would make me happier than to see the blamers reaping what they sew.
Let me go on record saying that I oppose a government run ID system when the free enterprise system is already source verifying cattle. The federal government can track those cattle that are traceable, and the blamers can reap what they sew with non traceable cattle. Further seperation between progressive and regressive, I LOVE IT!
~SH~
~SH~ said:
You have obviously forgotten the Florida State study. That was a cost benefit analysis. In fact it was the only cost benefit analysis done on COOL. The one done by the USDA was only a cost analysis--and a very poor one at that.
It's not that I would necessarily trust a USDA cost benefit analysis, but if they had one then we could see what their assumptions are. Right now they have everybody flying blind.
At least when they did their analysis on COOL, we were able to see their assumptions---$50 per hour clerks!!
Their assumptions are that they don't want to do it and no one can make them. The Secretary can spend 100 million on MID but don't ask him to enforce the laws passed in the U.S. Johannes can not get his undersecretaries like in GIPSA or AMS to do their jobs. How much money is being spent on them?
PORKER
Well-known member
GIPSA is corupt Period............Plus the people that work there>>>>>
A
Anonymous
Guest
TALK IS CHEAP
PROVE IT PORKY!
~SH~
~SH~ said:
He doesn't have to, OIG already did. Definitively. GAO gave them a couple of chances to correct themselves and JoAnn Waterfield lied to Congress about the "rapid response teams" and GIPSA's ability to respond at all.
