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Why do ranch hands move so often?

Maybe all you ranchers need to realize the value of hired men and not think you are doing them a favor. Come on guys read your posts. Look at things from the other side of the fence.

Cowboy up i think its admirable that you tell your hands thank you. Thank you goes a long ways.
 
cowboyup said:
sounds to me too many people are looking over the fence thinking its better on the other side. do you realize what it costs to run an operation? Do you know what your house and utililities are costing your employer? If you agreed to work for so much a month are you to good to do what is asked of you whether it is horseback or in the tractor? If you don't want to do it then who does? When I worked for other people I always tried to go above and beyond what was asked of me and tried to treat the place like it was mine and how I would like it taken care of.That is why they hired you to help them do the things that they couldn't get done, so help them keep in business and keep your job.
Instead of complaining maybe look at how good you really have it and work a little harder and help the people you hired on to help. In my own situation now I have been away from this place for two days once in three years and that was to move my father in law back to North Dakota. I'm not complaining as I put myself in this situation but the help I hire all seem to want the paycheck and time off without working for it. They all want to be cowboys instead of ranchhands.
They act like getting in the tractor or irrigating is demeaning to them somehow. I've been calving bout five hundred cows and farming/haying 1400 acres by myself I hire people to help me but nobody seems to want to work that hard all they want is a paycheck and time off. What happened to taking care of the guys who take care of you?
I try to give the guys who work for me saturday afternoon and Sundays off except during haying and just suck it up and take care of their duties myself. But my family suffers and they miss me too but to keep things going I have to take care of everything my employee can't or aren't willing to do and every dollar is a big thing. I have been in management a long time and still didn't realize the amount of paperwork and phone time it takes to run a place this size. ON top of that I have 600 acres offlood irrigation and 2 pivots to keep going as well as fence to fix and cows to check and machinery to keep in good working condition and then have someone you hire tell me well I don't do that I only want to cowboy. Don't we all :!: So instead of cutting down the guy your working for try to put yourself in his shoes and tell him or her thank you for the opportunity to work for them. They wouldn't have hired you if they could do everything themselves. Every day I try to tell the guy who is working for me thanks for the days work and let him know that I appreciate everything he has done. While I know not everybody does thi but everybody I ever worked for in some way found a way to tell me that through actions or words.Maybe I was fortunate in the guys I worked for or maybe it was the positive attitude and never complaining no matter what job I was given. When you show up to work tomorrow tell whoever your working for thanks and if you aren't able to do that then you should be looking for a different job.
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Very good post.

A Thank you is worth more to me than the pay.Treat people as you would like to be treated but that goes both way's.Alot of hired help should step back and look are they the kind of help they would hire if they were in charge.
 
CattleRMe said:
Bottom line why do ranch employers so often expect help to live in situations they themselves would not live in?

Come on guys step out of your $40,000 pickups and tell me you can't afford it.
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I don't have a $40,000 truck but those who do earned it one way or another.To me thats a waste of money land and cattle the only two thing's worth buying oh yea and VIGORTONE mineral.
 
The reason I don't hire more help is because of government rules and red tape. There is too much paperwork, withholding taxes, and other malarky, and the problems go up exponentially with the more hands you hire.

You can't hire kids anymore until they are "old enough" to work, and by then they are out of the notion. When I was a kid, my dad hired twelve and thirteen-year-olds to work in the hayfield. It was a good situation for ranchers and the kids. The ranchers got their hay put up, and the kids learned to drive the smaller tractors that everyone used in those days.

The kids learned how to work, and made good wages. Minimum wage was not a factor; there either wasn't any or it didn't apply to agriculture. The kids maybe didn't get super rich, but they also didn't price themselves out of a job. They had spending money for the upcoming school year, and learned to handle their money. If they spent it all before they had a chance to earn some more, they were SOL.

The "entry level" job working on a ranch often provided city kids with a taste of realism. They learned that milk comes from a cow, and that veggies are grown in a garden. Great memories and lifelong friendships were developed. In those days, a rancher agreed to furnish room and board, and pay X amount of wages once a month. There were no withholding taxes of any kind. It was the employee's responsibility to pay any income taxes due at the end of the year.

Then along came Uncle Sam, with his infinite "wisdom" and screwed up the system. More rules and regulations, laws against "child labor", a minimum wage factor, un-keepable OSHA guidelines, withholding taxes, etc. all contributed to major changes in the work force.

Ranchers have spent money on bigger and better equipment to get by with less labor. They hire more of their work done on contract. Instead of fixing their own windmills, they hire specialists who have boom trucks and proper equipment to do the job. Fencing is contracted out to fencing crews. Instead of hiring several kids to drive small tractors and help put up loose hay in stacks, haying is contracted out to be baled (which requires less people but more elaborate equipment).

Uncle Sam has messed with the system all across the United States. The reason ranchers don't hire more help is the same reason other industies and businesses don't hire more help. There is way too much government medling. This is also the reason so much of our industry is now being done overseas. The United States has just plumb priced themselves out of business. Democrats, Liberals, Big Unions, and voters that continually want "something for nothing" are the major contributors to this trend.

This is the way I see it :roll: strictly from a cowboy's perspective.
 
That is all well and good, Cowboyup, IF you let someone know at hiring that there is considerable tractor work and other work to be done, and that you aren't looking for a cowboy. But I doubt you would hire a cowboy and expect him to tractor.
There are a pile of people that will hire (or try to hire) a man who is a cowboy and put him in a tractor except for a couple of days a year. They figure someone making the kind of money an agricultural employee makes is trapped there, so they try to screw them.
Point of fact is, most places farm help makes more than cowboy wages.
If you are looking for a farm hand, or even ranch hand, don't try to hire a cowboy. That square peg won't fit. I am amazed at the number of people who have been in this industry long enough that they ought to know the difference, but don't or just are so desperate for help they don't care. :roll:
 
cowboyup said:
sounds to me too many people are looking over the fence thinking its better on the other side. do you realize what it costs to run an operation? Do you know what your house and utililities are costing your employer? If you agreed to work for so much a month are you to good to do what is asked of you whether it is horseback or in the tractor? If you don't want to do it then who does? When I worked for other people I always tried to go above and beyond what was asked of me and tried to treat the place like it was mine and how I would like it taken care of.That is why they hired you to help them do the things that they couldn't get done, so help them keep in business and keep your job.
Instead of complaining maybe look at how good you really have it and work a little harder and help the people you hired on to help. In my own situation now I have been away from this place for two days once in three years and that was to move my father in law back to North Dakota. I'm not complaining as I put myself in this situation but the help I hire all seem to want the paycheck and time off without working for it. They all want to be cowboys instead of ranchhands.
They act like getting in the tractor or irrigating is demeaning to them somehow. I've been calving bout five hundred cows and farming/haying 1400 acres by myself I hire people to help me but nobody seems to want to work that hard all they want is a paycheck and time off. What happened to taking care of the guys who take care of you?
I try to give the guys who work for me saturday afternoon and Sundays off except during haying and just suck it up and take care of their duties myself. But my family suffers and they miss me too but to keep things going I have to take care of everything my employee can't or aren't willing to do and every dollar is a big thing. I have been in management a long time and still didn't realize the amount of paperwork and phone time it takes to run a place this size. ON top of that I have 600 acres offlood irrigation and 2 pivots to keep going as well as fence to fix and cows to check and machinery to keep in good working condition and then have someone you hire tell me well I don't do that I only want to cowboy. Don't we all :!: So instead of cutting down the guy your working for try to put yourself in his shoes and tell him or her thank you for the opportunity to work for them. They wouldn't have hired you if they could do everything themselves. Every day I try to tell the guy who is working for me thanks for the days work and let him know that I appreciate everything he has done. While I know not everybody does thi but everybody I ever worked for in some way found a way to tell me that through actions or words.Maybe I was fortunate in the guys I worked for or maybe it was the positive attitude and never complaining no matter what job I was given. When you show up to work tomorrow tell whoever your working for thanks and if you aren't able to do that then you should be looking for a different job.
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In my opinion this is the best post on this whole thread...all I can say cowboyup is AMEN!!!

Cheers---

TTB :wink:
 
Well, I probably should still keep my mouth shut here but it doesn't seem to be my nature. I'm also in ohio and don't have the space to get "wild and wooley" like ya'll do.

I've worked for 4 operations in my 28 years on this earth. My folks place is the first. I'll never work for my old man again even if I'm living in a box. God love him and so do I but he is a real SOB to work for. And the hired help says the same thing but Dad knows he can't get along with out them so he makes it right with them. He didn't feel the need with me, cause I'm family.

Second was another dairy farm while I was in college. Stayed there 3 years, the dairy became incorporated and I became scarse. That was right about the same time I decided I didn't want to be covered in slurry crap the rest of my life and dairying wasn't for me anymore. Add corporation to any family run/owned business and it spells trouble for the help.

Third was a (big for ohio) angus operation. I rode in right out of college. I like to think I'm pretty humble with what I might know and I'm always looking for better more efficient ways of doing things. I agreed on what my job was, a challenge nonetheless, but I was up for it.
This is the place where I was first introduced to EXT daughters. NUFFSAID there.
Turned out that I was in for more hassle than I origionally told. And the list of conditions kept getting longer. To make a long story short, I had to prove to the lady that owned the place that out of 150 head I calved out within 2 weeks the one I lost was still born. If it wasn't, I lost my job.
One of those lovely tempered EXT daughters broke 3 of my ribs and lamed a dang fine horse. The boss lady was mad cause I lamed her horse and I was fired on the spot. I then cleaned out the bunk house, drew my last check, and never looked back. Definatley a stepping stone which I probably benefited from in the long run.

Now I run my own operation. Small enough that I get most done with out hired help. Don't get much sleep this time of year and even less when the corn comes off but I like it that way. But, I'm a farmer not a rancher. I spend several months out of the year riding fences and calving cows. I also spend several months planting and harvesting what the critters here eat. And the other months I spend praying the crops and calves grow. Add the everyday joys of working for myself, watching my kids enjoy the farm life, and loving and providing for my family...I have the best job in the world.

I often think that I would like to take my added years of self employed wisdom and my new found patience and give the angus ranch another go. But then again, I like only havening to answer to the kids. :D

Sorry for the senseless rambling. I think that if the family hadn't come along so quick I might be out there in the sandhills playing cowgirl instead of on the computer.
 
There you have it, folks. Two very good presentations to both sides of the story.

Which goes back to my original question: If employees have to give recommendations, why don't employers?

There are good and bad on both sides. Tough situations. But when you find the right fit, it is a great life. Finding it is something else again. No guarantees and there is so much riding on the outcome.

The friends I mentioned earlier that really got stung, went through a hiring service to get the right place for their family. Even that didn't work.

These are peoples lives we are talking about and it is serious business.

Thanking your help as cowboyup does, gives the worker a sense of being appreciated which is very important. But fairly rare, I think. The way Soapweed treats his help is to be commended. You can tell he puts them right up there equal to him and I bet if you asked Saddletramp he would tell you they work together, not one for the other. I think that is rare. Many times how you treat people and not what you pay them (within reason) has as much to do as anything with help staying or leaving.

My husband, when we have kids work for the summer, always asks them to do something, never orders them, because when he worked for people it was important to him to be asked, not told. He always considers the kids work with him not for him. Our night calver could have any job in the area night calving. But he has worked for us for going on 10 years now. We do our best to treat him right and we have been able to keep him here helping us. My husband is a humble person, never thinks he is better than someone, in fact, truth be known, he thinks the help knows more than he does!!!

A little appreciation goes a long ways.
 
I think most people should just wise up and look at the deal that is going on, whether you are lookiong for a job or an employee.

There ain't many straight riding jobs anymore, and as a point of fact, there never were in this part of the country. Cowboys got laid off in the fall when the shipping was done and if you were lucky they kept you on thru' the winter to feed the few thin cows.

The rest of the crew had to ride around the country and visit and try and make the winter.

When you hire onto a ranch, you ought to be wise enough to know that there are going to be jobs that require that you get afoot and or on a tractor. If it's just ridin', chances are that they don't need much help and already have it, as the guys workin' there are happy and they ain't doing it for the money. So few married men can afford to work there.

When you hire a new feller or a new woman, they have to learn the way you do things. If you as a rancher have never been away from your part of the country and only know how to do a job, the way your dad or the neighbors do it, chances are, if you get someone who has worked around the country for quite a few different places, he/she might know of an easier way to do a job than you do and maybe you oght to try it their way, if they offer a suggestion. It promotes a good feeling in the help.Then they will appreciate you and are less apt to quit.

A wise and good hand told me about a guy who he worked for when he was young. The feller told him, "A good man is like a good horse. Just give him a job and take the bridle off and don't be bumpin' his mouth."

I think tyat little saying says a lot.

When the kids were young and around here, when I sent them to do a job, such as fencing, I had to just show them how I would do it and then go away to let them do it. Neither I or them could stand to have me watch, as I was always in their way showing them what they were doing wrong and trying to make it easier for them. If I just left and then looked at the work later, I could either say, "Yup, you done a good job" or "Nope, you'll have to do it over or again, until it's up to my approval". Then they got to figure out how to do a job and I didn't have to watch the fumbling and mistakes that at pro wouldn't do at the job. They also learned to do a good job the first time, or they had to do it again or over.

We as ranchers need help to do some of our jobs and people who want to work on ranches need a job. Both should appreciate the other. And tell or show them they appreciate the job or the help.

I am like cowboy up as I feel you should always try to give a little more than you get and if everyone did it, it would make life a little easier.

Where we live, there are few hired hands. We neighbor a lot or just do it ourselves. One thing about having a hired hand, you can always fire them if you don't like the way they do things and if you are a hired man, you can quit if you don't like the way the boss does the job. When you help your neighbor, you have to do it his way, and if you want him to come and help you do it your way, you can't quit him. Sometimes it would be nice to have or be a hired man! :wink:

Face it people, not everybody out there are as good of hands or have as much knowledge or patientce as the people who write on here! :wink:

OK, end of Sundy morning service. :oops:
 
I think I pay my help well. My ranch manager makes about $37,000 per year. It costs me $6,900 a year for workmen's compensation and FICA insurance. I provide a modern house and utilities which is worth at least $5,400 per year. I pay $6,000 for health insurance and $892 for a $100,000 life insurance policy. Also provide a beef worth about $1,000 per year. He also get a year end bonus (which is also taxed.)

This adds up to over $57,000 per year.


The manager and his help are free to be gone for a few day whenever
work permits. They go to a lot of rodeos.

We just finished replacing 80 miles of fence (done by a contractor) so there is not a lot of fence work to do. Hasn't rained enough in the last few years to put up any hay. They do have to check stock water daily, but all of our pastures have at least a backup water system. They each have a ranch pickup.

Both employees are good hands and take car of the cattle. BUT!

1. We spent a lot of money fencing so we could do some light rotational grazing. Manager doesn't believe in that this has led to some pretty hot disagreements.

2. I have been told that "I might just be going down the road." a number of times. Last time, I said "Go, I'm tired of hearing it."

3. They don't maintain their trucks even though a mechanic does the complicated work. He let his truck run out of oil and it cost $2300 for a new engine. Checked last week and he hadn't changed oil in the new engine.

This guy is almost 64, hard of hearing, and can't to much physical labor anymore. He did too much rodeo. He used to love riding, but now won't ride unless he absolutely has to. His son-in-law, who is the other ranch hand does most of the manual work. I helped unload a bunch of hay bales last week and I am in better shape than he is - and I am going on to 70.

I feel loyalty to my employees and will keep the manager on until he retires in a year or so. (He has no house, no pension no other income.)

It was a lot of the above that has caused me to to put our ranch up for sale. It is a lot easier to make money in other ways.


Any buyers?
 
Sounds like he had a good deal and HE didn't appreciate it. That is too bad. There is that thing of taking people for granted that we all have to work to overcome.

But you can look yourself in the mirror and know you DID do right and you will DO right by your fellow man. Good for you!!!
 
Jinglebob I think your thought that both should respect the other right there is the key.

Ranchers need help and help need jobs it's a win win basis with some respect and relization that help doesn't have the ties to the place that the owner does.

Soapweed your point about the kids no longer help options is very true. When we help neighbors brand my Dad who will remain ageless lol is one of the younger men, here's a hint i'm nearing my mid 30's. Now my understanding is the kids have to be 14 and have had the tractor safety course. Most don't want to be out on the ranches and would rather be in town by this time. I remember not having an option having to hay instead of lifeguarding at the pool.
 
Back in the days when I was on the "working trail", I usually had the attitude that it was my place as well. Meaning I did the job well enough to make sure it was done right. Between a lot of different jobs I managed to do a little cattle work.

Generally had most folks pretty darned happy with my "ownership of the job tendency".

Never was afraid to make a suggestion, and was never afraid to stand there and do it the way the boss wanted it done.

First job was a buck and day and found at the age of 13 for the summer - always better to work away than it is to work at home :D (not!) - so you know I am getting up there! Just over 50 now :D

That gentleman is still alive and just turned 100 - great fellow but no one but him was allowed to run cattle on his place.

Someone like Cowpuncher had been out there and would have let me run a few, I probably would have been at it still.

But the grass was always greener so I moved on to other things and got away from it for quite a few years. Back at it again after quite a spell.

Bottom line is there is good and bad out there on both sides.

References should be required from both sides and as long as things are running smooth, folks just have to learn to treat each other like they would want to be treated. I always like to think I could count on the boss as much as they figured they could count on me.

When it worked I stayed and when it did not I packed up. Probably best for both sides.

But I did have a bosses wife put the run to me one time for grafting a calf onto an old beach of a cow. The cow laid a licking on me - then the calf. I returned the favour - successfully grafted the calf and then was told "Do it like that again you are fired". Asked for a day off to heal up a bit and was told "nope".

At the ripe old age of 16 or 17 I packed up and left.

Never had many that I could consider to be bad bosses. Usually I just did the job, tried to do it better than they would expect it to be done, stayed sober and showed up. Used my brain as much as possible and my scrawny little bit of brawn when it was needed. They paid me and left me alone.

Boss / employee is not a relationship of friendship. I admit it can become that over time - and wife and I still are very close to a couple in the Peace River country - they called me today I would be on the next plane out to help. It is a relationship of mutual trust and respect.

If it is there it will work. If it is not there it will not work.

Both sides sometimes need to take a look in the mirror.

JMO - best regards,

B.C.
 
Cowpuncher, you always add a lot to this forum. That was very good reading. I would love to come work for you if I wasn't already tied down. Not for the pay, but just because you seem to do things right, and I like a challenge. I hope everything turns out well for you in the end. It pretty much always does, it seems like.

We have tried to do things ourselves the last few years. Mainly for three reasons. One is that good help is hard to find. Two, is that it has been dry and we haven't needed as much help. And three, an employee has to pay for themselves or you can't justify it. Not if you are operating to make a profit. If you use Cowpunchers figures, it takes a potload of calves/yr. average on the good years, to pay one employee's wages. So, if you want to think that way, you could lose a lot of calves/yr. to equal what one employee cost you. I know each ranch needs a minimum of so much help to do the necessary things, but the figure still holds true. In a perfect world, the employee and employer could make a good wage.

No one had mentioned the competing jobs that effect ranch wages. Here the oil field, or construction jobs keep many from wanting to work for ranch wages. That is great that local people can make better money, but it does effect us whether we like it or not.

All that said, we could use some temporary help, to permenent help at the moment, if the right deal came along. :wink:

Wages DOE. :lol:
 
righter said:
That is all well and good, Cowboyup, IF you let someone know at hiring that there is considerable tractor work and other work to be done, and that you aren't looking for a cowboy. But I doubt you would hire a cowboy and expect him to tractor.
There are a pile of people that will hire (or try to hire) a man who is a cowboy and put him in a tractor except for a couple of days a year. They figure someone making the kind of money an agricultural employee makes is trapped there, so they try to screw them.
Point of fact is, most places farm help makes more than cowboy wages.
If you are looking for a farm hand, or even ranch hand, don't try to hire a cowboy. That square peg won't fit. I am amazed at the number of people who have been in this industry long enough that they ought to know the difference, but don't or just are so desperate for help they don't care. :roll:
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Righter---when you are older and busted up and unable to find "cowboy" work because you hold yourself above farming and your resume looks like hell and you have nothing to show for your years of efforts, you will be rethinking your views...guaranteed!!!!! for your info, cowboyup advertised for his ranchhand positions and STATED in the postings that it was not a strictly "cowboy" position!! He stated that the person needed irrigation/haying/calving/mechanic/fencing experience!! What amazed me was how many replies he got from folks like you who thought that "riding the range"was the only thing they would be doing!! Most ranches DO specify that "ranch hand" work now encompasses more than working cattle!! What also amazed me was the number of resumes he received that were laughable.....many of these "cowboys" did not have a job in the past that they had held down for more than a few months at a time!! The hand we have now had his last job for 3 years....he now has a really nice 3 bedroom HOUSE (not a trailor like our first place), paid utilities, days off whenever he needs, a ranch truck and makes a good wage (especially for this area when the average wage for a ranch hand would raise your hackles)!!! Cowboyup treats his help VERY well.....the last hand even had food and furniture given to him by my family because they had none!!! I am a NURSE and i see ranch hands who make more than me, have better benefits, less education, more time off and drive nicer vehicles than either cowboyup or I do!!! Whewwwww....better now that I got that off my chest!!
 
Sounds like he had a good deal and HE didn't appreciate it. That is too bad.

My thoughts, too.

Because i think that is something people tend to forget...

There is always going to be a negative or two with any job. The tricky part is deciding what you can live with and what is a deal breaker.
And frankly, I think that is a bit of learning that can only be found by experiencing how a few different places do, and do not do things.

But i still maintain, absentee is the way to go. 8)
 
I can see both sides of the fence. You need to treat the help as help, not the hired man. They need to treat the boss as boss and not as you owe me. I worked for many that drove $40,000 pick-ups, I felt they deserved it as they have most of the responsiblity of making a living for me and them. Most will furnish materials to up keep on the house if you do the work. Spent many days off making my house more liveable. I feel if it costs the boss this many dollars for me I had better make him that up in work. It takes quite a few calves just to pay the help. I don't feel like I am owed more, can always leave if he or I are not happy. See lots of help show up and demand they want these days off and this amount of money after they sign on. Should have thought about that before they said I do. I take care of his cows and equipment like it was my own. The years he doesn't make much I don't get a bonus and do on the years he does. There are not that many that need just a guy horse back unless it is a yearling outfit. If the boss doesn't treat me with respect it is hard to give it back. I say the help needs to give 60% more effort as they can always hire someone else. Just my rambling thoughts.
 
I don't know about in your area but here good help is hard to find. Seems to me its worth paying more and treating good honest trustworthy help good then to take the chance of losing them.

Giving someone a job is not a favor it is a business deal.
 
Well I have to disagree with you CattleRus,about Ted Turner, He bought my dad's old ranch and never put any hired help on there. Instead he bulldozed all the buildings and lite a match to it. :x :x :x :x :x :mad: The house was built in 1903 and had beautiful woodworking and a great china hutch. He had an offer for $10,000 for the house but he couldn't wait, also the pastures look terrible for having buffalo on them for only 3 years. As for his ranch manager, maybe he should go back to being the rung on the bottom of the ladder, where all the sh** gathers and learn what it takes to be a good hired hand. :wink: :P :lol: :!: Also Cowpuncher, my :hat:s off to you. You truly care what your help gets, but it is a tad more than here in the sandhills. My hubby was a rancher foreman for 4 years on a cousin-in-laws place and they din't care what we made or even to keep up the house, after we had been there for the first 3 years. We were there for 8 1/2 years total, and the wages only went up once by $50. and we were allowed a few head of cows,less than 15.
 

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