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Red Robin

here is some more data on the company your justice system keeps!!



During 2005, at least 2,148 people were executed in 22 countries and at least 5.186 people were sentenced to death in 53 countries. These were only minimum figures; the true figures were certainly higher.

In 2005, 94 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran, Saudi Arabia and the USA.
 
This is a summary of what happened. There was a more graphic article in the Rapid City Journal but I can't seem to find it. It had nothing to do with a video game. Tell me this guy doesnt deserve to die. :mad: :mad:

Date of scheduled execution State Victim name Inmate name Status
August 28, 2006 South Dakota Chester Allan Poage, 19 Elijah Page pending
On March 12 -13, 2000, Briley Piper and two others, Elijah Page and Darrell Hoadley, kidnapped and killed Chester Allan Poage so that they could steal property from the home Poage lived in with his mother and sister in Spearfish, South Dakota. Piper, Page and Hoadley, all of whom were friends with each other and with Poage, met up with Poage at approximately 8:00 p.m. on March 12, 2000. Piper had informed another friend that Poage would give him a ride to the Job Corps facilities. Poage complied with the request for the ride, and he, along with Piper, Page and Hoadley, picked the friend up and dropped him off at Job Corps. The remaining four then went to Poage's house and played PlayStation games. Poage's mother and sister were on vacation in Florida at this time. While there, Piper, Page and Hoadley convinced Poage to leave his house, and the four left in Poage's 1997 Chevrolet Blazer. Testimony as to the origin of the plot to kill Poage and steal his property varies. It is unclear whether all three of the assailants planned on stealing items in the house so they could buy LSD, or whether Piper pulled Page outside to inform him he was going to steal stereo equipment from Poage's vehicle. It is also unclear whether they initially planned to kill Poage, or just beat him up. However, it is clear that the initial discussions as to killing Poage were limited to Piper and Page, and only after it was decided to kill him was Hoadley informed of the plan. All four ended up at the house in which Piper, Page and Hoadley had been staying. Once there, Page exposed a .22 caliber pistol, which he had stolen from Poage's mother's room at the Poage residence, and ordered Poage to get on the floor. Once Poage was on the floor, Piper kicked him in the face, knocking him unconscious. While Poage was unconscious, he was tied up with a cord and sat upright in a chair. After he regained consciousness, Piper laid a tire iron across his feet to prevent him from moving, while Page made him drink a mixture containing crushed pills, beer and hydrochloric acid. During this time, Poage begged for an explanation as to why his alleged friends were doing this. In response, Page hit him in the face and told him to "shut up." While Piper and Page discussed their plan to kill Poage, which included slitting the victim's throat, Poage pleaded for his life and offered to give them everything he owned in exchange for his release. At this point, Page asked Poage for the personal identification number for his ATM card, and Poage gave it to him. Next, the group escorted Poage to his own vehicle, placed him in the back seat and threatened his life if he attempted to escape. Piper got in the driver's seat. The group stopped at a gas station, and then Piper drove the group to Higgins Gulch in the Black Hills, a wooded area about seven miles away from the house where Piper, Page, and Hoadley had been staying. Upon arriving at Higgins Gulch, the group forced Poage out of his vehicle into twelve-inch deep snow. Poage was forced by Piper and Page to take off all of his clothes, except his tank-top style undershirt, shoes, and socks in temperatures of about twenty-five degrees Fahrenheit. The three young men then took Poage's wallet. Thereafter, the three tried holding Poage down and covering him up with snow. Poage was then escorted to an icy creek, just over fifty feet from the road they had driven on to reach the gulch. Page and Piper admitted kicking him numerous times in various parts of his body and head. Page said he kicked Poage in the head so many times it "made his own foot sore." At one point in the 3-hour attack, Poage did try to escape, but upon Piper's urging, Page recaptured him and continued to beat his near-naked body in the freezing temperatures. Poage was also made to lie in the icy creek water for a lengthy period of time. Piper later stated he had kicked Poage at the gulch a couple of times in the body and a couple of times in the head. Throughout the beatings, Piper laughed and said things like "Ohh ... like that would suck" and "Ah, that's got to hurt." At one point, Poage asked to be let into his vehicle to warm himself. The record indicates that Poage said he preferred to bleed to death in the warmth rather than freeze to death in the cold. Piper agreed to grant his request, so long as he washed the blood off of his body in the creek. After rinsing in the icy waters, Piper refused to let him warm himself in the vehicle. Instead, they continued beating and taunting Poage. Next, Poage was dragged back into the creek, where Piper and the others attempted to drown the victim. The co-defendants' stories diverge somewhat on the final fate of Poage. One witness stated that Piper admitted standing on Poage's neck to help Hoadley drown him, then Piper stabbed him twice or more -- once by the ear and then under the chin. Piper's brief contends he did not participate in the drowning attempts or stabbings, but instead that he went back to Poage's vehicle. After the drowning attempts, stabbings, beatings and stoning, Poage was still moving. According to Piper, Hoadley threw the final basketball-sized rock that killed Poage, but at that point Piper was not there to personally witness this act. Both Page and Hoadley admitted they jointly dropped large rocks on Poage's head, actions which they believed finally killed him. Approximately four hours after the three kidnapped Poage, and about three hours after the beatings began at the gulch, Poage was left for dead in the creek. Piper drove the three away from the secluded area in Poage's vehicle, and they proceeded to discuss how they would divide Poage's property. They went to Poage's house and stole numerous items. The group then drove to Hannibal, Missouri, together. There, they visited Piper's sister, but upon her refusal to let them stay, they headed back to South Dakota. The group returned to Rapid City, South Dakota, using Poage's ATM card for cash and pawning some of Poage's property throughout the trip. Records from Poage's bank show the ATM card was used six times in various locations in South Dakota and Nebraska. Some of Poage's property was later found at pawnshops in Wyoming and Missouri. When the trio returned to Spearfish, Hoadley's juvenile girlfriend testified that she saw the three unpack the stolen PlayStation, video games and many other items from Poage's house. She also testified that Piper confessed the murder to her in detail. She said Piper laughed about the killing as he told her about it, "and thought it was just like a really cool neat thing." Another friend of Piper's testified that Piper confessed to him as well and confirmed the nonchalant attitude, stating, Piper acted "a bit cocky" while telling the story of the beatings. Eventually, the three went their own ways. Piper ultimately ended up in his home state of Alaska. On April 22, 2000, over a month after the three left Poage for dead, a woman who owned land near Higgins Gulch spotted what was later determined to be Poage's remains in the creek. His body was found, clad in a sleeveless t-shirt, socks and shoes. A forensic pathologist from the Clinical Laboratory in Rapid City performed an autopsy on the body. He discovered numerous head injuries and stab wounds. Some examples of the head injuries inflicted included: a stab wound that nearly severed the jugular vein, another stab wound through the skull and into the brain, and a complex, spider-web shaped skull fracture that measured five inches. Poage's ears were almost torn off from being kicked repeatedly. He determined the cause of death was the "stab wounds and the blunt force injury to the head." After the body was discovered, Piper became a suspect. Law enforcement from South Dakota tracked him down in Alaska, questioned him and arrested him for first degree murder. While still in Alaska, he gave a detailed statement describing Poage's murder and his participation in it to South Dakota law enforcement. He was subsequently extradited to South Dakota. Piper was then jailed in Lawrence County, South Dakota. He later pleaded guilty to, and was convicted of, first degree felony murder; kidnapping; robbery in the first degree; burglary in the first degree; and grand theft. The circuit court ruled that the death penalty would be imposed for the first degree murder conviction. Thereafter, co-defendant Page, who had been arrested in Texas, also pleaded guilty to the same charges, and after an extensive sentencing hearing, he was also sentenced to death by the same judge. Hoadley then stood trial in front of a jury on the same charges. He was found guilty of the same charges but the jury sentenced him to life in prison. "The sheer brutality of this crime places it among the worst of the worst," assistant attorney general Sherri Sundem Wald stated in written arguments to the high court. Piper was enthralled when describing the abduction and slaying to fellow jail inmates after he was arrested, deputy attorney general Craig Eichstadt said. Piper feigned remorse only when he felt it would result in a more lenient sentence, the deputy attorney general said. While waiting to learn his fate, Piper tried to recruit inmates to help him kill a guard and break out of jail. Assistant attorney general Gary Campbell said said Page was a merciless killer who inflicted the greatest punishment on Poage. "We're not talking about a passive follower here."
 
Although our first instinct may be to inflict immediate pain on someone who wrongs us, the standards of a mature society demand a more measured response.

The emotional impulse for revenge is not a sufficient justification for invoking a system of capital punishment, with all its accompanying problems and risks. Our laws and criminal justice system should lead us to higher principles that demonstrate a complete respect for life, even the life of a murderer. Encouraging our basest motives of revenge, which ends in another killing, extends the chain of violence. Allowing executions sanctions killing as a form of 'pay-back.'

Many victims' families denounce the use of the death penalty. Using an execution to try to right the wrong of their loss is an affront to them and only causes more pain. For example, Bud Welch's daughter, Julie, was killed in the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995. Although his first reaction was to wish that those who committed this terrible crime be killed, he ultimately realized that such killing "is simply vengeance; and it was vengeance that killed Julie.... Vengeance is a strong and natural emotion. But it has no place in our justice system."

The notion of an eye for an eye, or a life for a life, is a simplistic one which our society has never endorsed. We do not allow torturing the torturer, or raping the rapist. Taking the life of a murderer is a similarly disproportionate punishment, especially in light of the fact that the U.S. executes only a small percentage of those convicted of murder, and these defendants are typically not the worst offenders but merely the ones with the fewest resources to defend themselves
 
It's very plain and simple.

Those who commit heinous crimes against others do not deserve to live.

What's the difference between this and being able to protect oneself with deadly force when attacked?

If you would shoot an intruder that is harming your children.......you are a proponent of capital punishment.
 
Elwapo:
Although our first instinct may be to inflict immediate pain on someone who wrongs us, the standards of a mature society demand a more measured response.

about the source...

" An apologetic James Allridge, whose case attracted the attention of celebrity capital punishment opponents, was executed for killing a Fort Worth, Texas, convenience store clerk 19 years ago. His brother had also been executed for murder in 1995.
Speaking slowly and quietly with his voice halting at times, Allridge thanked his family and friends for loving him and expressed remorse.
"I am sorry, I really am," he said in a brief final statement. "I am sorry I destroyed y'all's life," he said looking at the family of his victim. "Thank you for forgiving me. To the moon and back, I love you all." "I leave you all as I came – in love," he said. Nine minutes later, he was pronounced dead.
Allridge, 41, executed in Huntsville, was the 12th Texas inmate executed this year.
Allridge was visited last month by actress Susan Sarandon, who purchased some of his prison-made artwork and for years corresponded with him.
Sarandon, 57, won an Academy Award in 1996 for her portrayal of death penalty opponent Helen Prejean in the movie version of the New Orleans-based nun's book Dead Man Walking.
Prejean was among the people who witnessed the execution. She whispered a brief prayer after Allridge slipped into unconsciousness and comforted Allridge's relatives.
Allridge's brother, Ronald, was put to death in 1995 for killing a woman during the robbery of a Fort Worth fast-food restaurant, part of a two-month crime spree that targeted convenience stores and fast-food places.
"Our parents have lost their second son by lethal injection to the state of Texas," two of Allridge's brothers, who also witnessed the execution, said in a statement. "Their pain is incomprehensible. Our fractured, but thriving family will endure."
Unlike his brother, who had also served time for killing a classmate at age 15, the crime wave appeared to be out of character for James Allridge, who had no previous criminal record."

a nice emotional good guy treated wrong?

the fact:


Allridge took Clendennen to the storeroom, tied his hands behind his back, and proceeded to empty the cash register and safe. He went back to the storeroom, and finding that Clendennen had moved, forced him to his knees and shot him twice in the back of the head, execution style. Allridge committed seven other aggravated robberies after the robbery and murder of Clenbennen. He was involved in the robbery-murder at a Whataburger in Fort Worth,

execution, hands tied behind back.....on his knees.....shot in the head... seven other robberies........and another Murder....

Elwapa...
did the victim "attracted the attention of celebrity"?
did the victim get a "brief final statement"?
did the victim get to plead for forgiveness....tell his family " he said looking at the family of his victim. "Thank you for forgiving me. To the moon and back, I love you all." "I leave you all as I came – in love,".?
did the victim get a movie about his life.?,
as he died did the victim get "comforted?, was a prayer said?...was his relatives held while they grieved his death?
was the victim's family allowed a comment, tearful, few words such as?"

""Our parents have lost their son [ by execution, hands bound, on his knees begging for his life]," two of [of our children died by his hands] , who also witnessed the execution, said in a statement. "Their pain is incomprehensible. Our fractured, but thriving family will endure."

No because this murderer took it away from him, but in our mature society [we] demand a more measured response. one that allows the convected to make peace, say goodbye, and even to seek forgiveness......all the while being comforted by family friends, prayers, and even misguided celebirties......

 
elwapo said:
red robin
can easily support my position. My position has been clearly stated but I'll state it again. I say that the United States has set up laws which are to apply justice to our nation. I would also say that civilian be headings are very unjust and are totally unrelated to anything similiar to our capital punishment meeted out by our justice system. Since you won't logically debate me on my position and have changed yours , I'll debate you on your position.

here is some of the mountain of support for my opinion


According to the most comprehensive study a death penalty case costs about 2 million dollars over the cost of a life-imprisonment case. Costs in North Carolina were 2.16 million more. (Texas spends about 2.3 million to execute someone; Florida averages 3.2 million). (Source: Duke University, May 1993; Dallas Morning News, Mar 8 '92; Miami Herald, July 10 '88; Death Penalty Information Center Jan 1 '96)

As of March 1997 66 people have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence. (Source Staff Report, House Judiciary subcommittee on Civil & Constitutional Rights, Oct. 1993; Death Penalty Information Center)

Radelet & Bedau found 23 cases where innocent persons were executed (Source: In Spite of Innocence, Northeastern Univ. Press, 1992)

The mood and temper of the public in regard to the treatment of crime and criminals is one of the most unfailing tests of the civilization of any country.
--Winston Churchill
I guess we'll just disagree. Since you're in Canada and I'm in the U.S. I don't guess it'll hurt either one of us to not convince the other.
 
If you have learned how to disagree without being disagreeable, then you have discovered the secret of getting along -- whether it be business, family relations, or life itself.
Bernard Meltzer
 
Mike said:
It's very plain and simple.

Those who commit heinous crimes against others do not deserve to live.

What's the difference between this and being able to protect oneself with deadly force when attacked?

If you would shoot an intruder that is harming your children.......you are a proponent of capital punishment.

Guess you showed me my stand on capital punishment. :shock:
 
Just read about a retired border patrol agent from my hometown that died in the last few days from a rattlesnake bite. He'd moved to Roundup and was out hunting when he got bit.

Good huntin Saddletramp...keep killing them. I know I killed every one I came across back home and even went hunting them up at their den in the spring and fall -- and there is no shortage of those Diamondback's from the numbers I saw :wink:
 
If you would shoot an intruder that is harming your children.......you are a proponent of capital punishment.


I'm apt to shoot ANY intruder!
 
Your risk of being bitten by a snake is small, and so too is your risk of dying if bitten. Although there are an estimated 45,000 bites by all snakes in the United States each year, only about 6,680 persons are treated for snake venom poisoning. During the past five years, the number of deaths from snakebite in the United States has ranged between nine and 14. Most of the deaths occurred in children; in the elderly; in untreated, mistreated, or undertreated cases; in cases complicated by other serious disease states; or in members of religious sects who handle serpents as part of their worship and refuse medical treatment. Almost all reported deaths have been attributed to rattlesnakes. In addition, 25% of all pit viper bites are "dry" (no venom injected) and another 15% are so trivial they require only local cleansing and tetanus prophylaxis.

Approximately 75% of all snakebites occur in people aged between 19 and 30 years, 1 - 2% percent occur in women, and less than 1 % occur in blacks. Approximately 40% of all snakebites occur in people who are handling or playing with snakes, and 40% of all people bitten had a blood alcohol level of greater than 0.1%. Sixty-five percent of snakebites occur on the hand or fingers (duh!), 24 percent on the foot or ankle, and 11 percent elsewhere.

So it seems that being a young man who gets drunk and messes about with venomous snakes is highly correlated to being bitten.
 
Have you lived in Medicine Hat for a long time Elwapo? If so, you may have heard or even met the Border Patrol guy I was talking about...my home town is just south of Medicine Hat and I've visited your fair town a number of times -- behaving myself all the while too!! :wink:
 
I was born and raised between Medicine Hat and Elkwater. We go through the Wild Horse border crossing a few times a year. Didn't here about the border gaurd dying from a snake bite. As a matter of fact I have never heard of anyone dying in south eastern AB from a snake bite. I will be gathering tomorrow out of a pasture that has a large den on it. Seldom do I check cows there without seeing rattlesnakes in the heat of the summer. Me and my pony give them a wide berth and all goes well. They dont like to be surprised by me and I dont like to be surprised by them.

A funny storey
I sent my new hired man out a couple of years ago to fix fence. He didn't come back so my dad wetn for a drive to check on him. Apparently he had come across a rather large snake (we had neglected to tell him about the snake situation an that pasture). When he saw the snake he dropped all the fencing gear and ran to the biggest rock he could find and stood on it for I dont know how long.

You must tbe from Manyberries? There is not much else south of Medicine Hat.
 
:wink: Gotta go further south than that...across the Wild Horse border to the south...I worked on a big farm for a few years with land that bordered Canada...I did a lot of fencing, picking rock, driving truck...even "jumped" the fence once to fight a fire that was started by lightening -- and we didn't even get permission to cross, just jumped and started fightin it, I don't think Canada minded in the least 8)

Mostly went to Medicine Hat for fun when I was "younger"...haven't been to there in about 15 years I imagine...I hope to get that way next time I get back home...it sure was fun there, lol. Don't know that the dollar exchange is as "nice" as it once was tho.
 
That is some empty country between Havre and Medicine Hat. It is funny that for about an hour this side of the border it is all ranches and once you hit the border it changes to farms and the land is mostly broke and very marginal. I have always wondered how those farmers made a living on that poor dried out ground. I know north of the border the grazing rate is about 3 cows per quarter until you hit the Cypress Hills.

Fifteen years ago ..........we probably bumped into each other on the dance floor at JD,s saloon.
 
Indeed we could have -- I didn't remember the name of the place that I'd go for dancing, but that must be it...the farm I worked on owned 30,000 acres and they only farmed 1/2 of it per year, the other half sat until fall when the winter wheat would get planted. One cutting of crested wheat grass a year for the land that was hayed.

One year I remember in particular, the combines were flying through the wheat at 8 mph!! Then the next, we had a great winter and rains when needed and the combines were down to about 1 mph for most of the harvest. I filled all the bins and still had to haul some to town because we ran out of storage...so it's feast or famine in that country -- but they do raise a BUNCH of speed goats. I'd see hundreds of them every day out there.

I'd say the grazing is about the same in that Wild Horse country. There isn't a whole lot to see up there, pretty barren and if you're gonna make a living farming, ya better either have another day job or own enough to make a go of it.
 
been a pleasure mtn. I have to go make sure the hired man isn't wound up in the wire roller.

hopefully I can post some snake pics on monday.
 

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