A perfect seedstock operation.

[Tap]

Since I ruffled TTB's feathers a little, I thought I would make a new thread and explain my thoughts a little better.

What I was trying to say (and not insult any present operations really, and I think you know that) is that I think more pressure needs to be put on seedstock operations to weed out some cattle. We all want fat animals, and I am not talking about shorting them feed either, but too much is done with feed to cover shortfalls up in cattle. IMO.

First I will say that I know these things are not possible with all operations, but here is what I would like to see more of.

Figure out what time of the year "fits" the best for the closest to unassisted calving as possible, and do it then. Calve in large clean areas, and go ahead and get the calves tagged and weighed, but let the poor mothers weed themselves out and any cows with large teats go down the road. A cow should have a calf on her own, no excuses. Cows prefer to calve without human assistance, and the health is better for her offspring also if it is born on a dry grassy area. If you want to say that the bulls they raise are not big enough to sell in 12 months, run them over to short two year olds or whatever it takes. And try to do that on a grass based ration. Or forage based. And no, I do not mean 15# of hay and 10# of grain.

Make sure the cows get a balanced ration over the winter, but do not have them standing in grain hay, or eating pounds and pounds of grain that they may not need anyway. This will put some pressure on the herd to breed back in a consistant manner, and will weed out some unthrifty animals. I do not need to hear that they need more feed because those cows are heavy milkers, and are cycling late because of all the milk they are producing and the big calf they are raising. She should breed back timely, or she will pass that on to her offspring.

I could go on, but you get the idea of what I was trying to say. I do know this is not all practical, as there are so many types of operations, but this would be what I would like to see more of in the seedstock business.

No offence meant TTB. lol :wink:

 

[PureCountry]

Tap, I'm not sure where "Anyplace you find me, USA" is, but it's a shame you don't live closer to me, Northern, and Rkaiser. You've just described our operations. Shouldn't speak for Northern completely, since I don't know how much seedstock he sells, but it's certainly how he runs his cowherd. Rkaiser and I don't feed any grain to cows or the developing yearling bulls, and it's amazing how much easier it is to pick out the poorer genetics when you let Mother Nature measure them for you. The ones that can thrive on what our ranch produces, can stay. Those that just scrape by or come in thin, can go.

 

[Doug Thorson]

Hardass Catttle Company, all that and more!!!!

 

[BRG]

Goodmorning, it has been a while since I have been on here, pretty busy with the new little guy. I am on the couch with him while he is taking a little nap. Anyway I thought I would reply to this one. Let me start by saying I agree 100% when you say that seedstock producers need to be tougher on their cows than commercial ranches, but on the same note, I also manage a few bull and female sales, around the country, so I have an idea of what the majority of the commercial ranches buy or what brings the most money.

Let me describe our seedstock ranch first. Our main herd calves in May and June. We then wean them around mid Oct. Feed them to gain 2 lbs a day (which pretty much grows them out some) they then hit grass mid May, they are green/pretty much no fat cover. They then run on grass until Oct. 1, then brought into a bigger lot and fed some grass hay and straw for filler, corn gluten pellot for protein and a little corn for energy. The first year we did this we did not feed them much and they did come in a little green. (The grass they run on are cool season grasses and it is pretty much done by July 1) They sold ok, but our customers actually told us that we should have fed them a bit better, so now we do. But they do not come in fat. They are sold mid Nov. as short 2's.

The cowherd is 5 miles away from the ranch and they do not come home. Every cow that has had 1 calf is up there for the winter and to calve. They calve in 640 acres and are checked on once a day to weigh and tag. They are wintered on native grass and about Mid January they get some liquid protein, where they ate about 3/4 of a lbs a day. The first calf heifers are closer to home where they got some hay and when they calve we check they twice a day and they are in a 320 acre pasture. We would let them winter on grass instead of feeding them a little hay, except we don't have enough pasture with winter protection on it to do this. We have a 45 day breeding season, and cows that don't milk, don't perform close to average or have bad bags go to town. We do all of this and our cows are around that 6 frame area, they are never thin, and it takes around 20 acres a cow.

Now, I said I manage a few sales, and see what sell the best. As much as I don't like to see a fat bull, for the average seestock producer, he will sell, where a bull that is thin will not. Their are exceptions like Pharo, but that is his program and he promotes it. I had a sale this spring and they were thin!!! Good bulls, but just not in shape. They averaged $1050 on 55 bulls and had 18 no sales. And then 5 bulls that were brought in by a guest consignor weighing 1300 to 1400 lbs and they sold over $2000. I have several more examples, but you get the idea. I think their is a fine line between Fat and Thin. We try to get ours in that area.

I guess I don't know what is right, but if you want to be able to pay your bills and keep on ranching, you better try to sell what sells the best and what your customer buys. But again I agree, the guys who sells the bulls should be tough and not pamper his cows. Because he will never be pampered on the average commercial ranch.

 

[Turkey Track Bar]

Since I ruffled TTB's feathers a little, I thought I would make a new thread and explain my thoughts a little better.

What I was trying to say (and not insult any present operations really, and I think you know that) is that I think more pressure needs to be put on seedstock operations to weed out some cattle. We all want fat animals, and I am not talking about shorting them feed either, but too much is done with feed to cover shortfalls up in cattle. IMO.

First I will say that I know these things are not possible with all operations, but here is what I would like to see more of.

Figure out what time of the year "fits" the best for the closest to unassisted calving as possible, and do it then. Calve in large clean areas, and go ahead and get the calves tagged and weighed, but let the poor mothers weed themselves out and any cows with large teats go down the road. A cow should have a calf on her own, no excuses. Cows prefer to calve without human assistance, and the health is better for her offspring also if it is born on a dry grassy area. If you want to say that the bulls they raise are not big enough to sell in 12 months, run them over to short two year olds or whatever it takes. And try to do that on a grass based ration. Or forage based. And no, I do not mean 15# of hay and 10# of grain.

Make sure the cows get a balanced ration over the winter, but do not have them standing in grain hay, or eating pounds and pounds of grain that they may not need anyway. This will put some pressure on the herd to breed back in a consistant manner, and will weed out some unthrifty animals. I do not need to hear that they need more feed because those cows are heavy milkers, and are cycling late because of all the milk they are producing and the big calf they are raising. She should breed back timely, or she will pass that on to her offspring.

I could go on, but you get the idea of what I was trying to say. I do know this is not all practical, as there are so many types of operations, but this would be what I would like to see more of in the seedstock business.

No offence meant TTB. lol :wink:

Oh, my friend Tap, you were a long ways from offending me. That is a pretty tough thing to do...I was just heckling you, that's all.

You know, I agree with a good chunk of what you've said here...I personally believe the best tool a seedstock outfit can own is a jack knife, and probably more bulls should be cut.

I also agree that cows should calve on their own, in a pasture setting, and be culled accordingly.

At our outfit, when Lazy Ace takes to cullin' cows....I generally ask his Mom if I'm on the list. We cull for bad feet, bad udders, bad performance, bad dispositon, and being open. Thus far, I am on the list for bad feet and being open, and some days, bad disposition. I won't comment on the udder part! :lol: :wink: :lol: But I do perform well :wink: and am easy fleshing.

The only way you'll get a free ride on the open part is if you're an old, old cow at our place who's earned her right to stay. And, if it's dry or lazy ace is in a bad mood, you'll go. Otherwise you'll find a new career.

About the bull side Tap...we do not have the luxury of a big land base. Our situation is ever changing because a good bit of our place is made up of Tribal lease land. We live on THEIR NATION, and thus we live by their rules and regulations...for better or worse. We are sending all of our commercial cows to North Dakota for the summer. They were there all winter....why??? Well, between losing tribal lease land, losing all of our grazing to fire, and the tribe cutting back stocking rates, (while increasing grazing fees,) we can not justify over grazing the rest of our operation. That is not good business, good stewardship or good husbandry.

If we run 100 head of bulls on grass to develop them, that is 100 less cows we can run on the backside of the deal. It means losing 200 head worth of income the first year (because you almost never can market forage developed bulls as yearlings, so there would be around 100 head, and then the 100 head of calves that would be lost off of the cows.) and 100 head worth there after. By the way, lots of forage developed bulls do get a grain based diet at the end of their "development."

We have to make a living too....are all of you willing to pay the difference in the price of a bull for us losing the income of 200 head, the first year, and the income of 100 head there after?

For easy math, if we were to sell $600 calves in the fall, the first year of income loss would be $120,000, and the years thereafter would be $60,000. That is a lot of income. If you're selling 100 head of bulls, you would need to up your average $1,200 per head at the most and $600 per head at the least, to offset the loss of production, in this example.

I went back through our ultrasound data for our 2007 sale bulls. These bulls were born in from Mid March to the end of May. Our bulls, who were weaned early (late July, early August,) because of the drought and fire, had an average backfat of less than .25 inches.

I am not saying we are anywhere near a perfect operation, but am explaining why we run our operation as we do. We try hard to please our customers and offer them a good value in genetics and service for their money.

Tap, I look forward to seeing your seedstock operation develop. You are a talented cowman, and should be successful. Remember to weigh and tag each calf. Don't forget to use your jackknife early and often, and remember to cull hard too. And, when you need to start advertising, talk to Faster Horses...she'll be able to help you out.

By the way, your calf was a good lookin' rascal...

You're a good egg Tap...I just had to tease ya a little yesterday, that's all.

Cheers---

TTB :wink:

PS I apologize for being so windy...add that to the list of reasons I should be culled! :wink:

 

[Northern Rancher]

The problem with selling bulls with less condition on them is that everyone assumes they were fed like the 'children of the corn'. I see alot of outfits jumping on the grass.hay run them hard bandwagon but not many truly do. Each outfit purebred or commercial has its own set of challenges about the only universal one is having bills to pay. I've been lucky enough to find an outfit or two that runs them the way I like so we kind of stick with them or else raise our own bulls. From all the pics posted on here there are alot of people who know what they're doing in the ranching business.

 

[Jason]

Speaking of costs to run cows and raise bulls, why does everyone consider only pasture grass as being tough?

I read an article about Nebraska costs, and it was actually cheaper to winter feed with cake and hay than summer grazing.

A cow on good grass can eat all she wants, whereas an animal in confinement can only eat what they are given.

 

[PureCountry]

Don't know about everyone else Jason, but my post was in regards to grass conditions being better for the animals, not better financially. I realize some feed rations at times may cost less than grass, but I'd rather have my cows maintained and calves/bulls developing on the grass produced on the ranch, instead of bought in feed. I always have to buy in hay for a few months every winter, but with bale-grazing on pastures and intensive management, we hope to increase our grass production to the point where we have enough stockpiled grass for most of the winter.

 

[Jason]

I like cows on pasture to PC.

Its just I can't own enough ground to run the cows I need to run to make a living.

I am sending out cows to grass now, mostly leased on a year to year deal. Not the best security, but knowing my options makes it better.

If a producer can feed a small amount of grain or suppliment with a poorer quality forage why should that disqualify him/her as a seedstock supplier. Especially when that ration might be less than what a herd that sees only hay/grass gets.

I have bought cows that the owner bragged about they only saw hay...they bawled for days because they didn't know how to forage a stubble field during a nice period of weather let alone a snow storm.

 

[Jinglebob]

I gott'a go with Tap.

I'd buy bulls from my neighbor who ran his cows the same or harder than mine, as they would fit my type of operation and my type of forage and country.

If they can't get fat on grass and need grain, then they won't work for me as all I have is grass.

Like breeds like.

Seems silly to go away from the type of country and operation a cowman has, to buy bulls. It's using apples to get oranges, to me. :?

 

[Tap]

This thread has taken the direction I thought it would. I understand every angle why this would not work on some operations, BUT what I tried to lay out is how I would like to see things in a perfect world.

TTB, two things I wanted to point out. We are not aiming to be seedstock producers of any type. Other than I do think we have some calves that would make very good bulls to use in our late herd. No calves from our late herd will be kept for replacements, so getting a good thrifty calf is most important to us. And I am not worried about BW in our own cattle either.

Second is that before all else integrity and honesty are the biggest factors to us in dealing on bulls. The info us commercial guys get is only as good as the people providing it. SO, I know that we would have absolutely no problem dealing with your guys outfit. Western SD is a small world, so your good reputation preceeds you.

We already do buy our bulls from an outfit that runs their cowherd about the way I like. The bulls they sell go to a feedlot (at weaning) that feeds them plenty heavy, but they wouldn't have made it to that point if they hadn't been survivors.

Here are a couple shots of a few new bulls trying to get out of the rain and wind we had today. They are June born coming two year olds. Got a strong 80 hundredths of rain here today. Life is good!

 

[Faster horses]

That first bull in the last photo looks like he might be a little feisty, Tap.
What do you say?

 

[elwapo]

Tap

The bulls they sell go to a feedlot (at weaning) that feeds them plenty heavy, but they wouldn't have made it to that point if they hadn't been survivors.

BRG I agree with your points and I think Taps statement basicaly sums the seedstock industry in a nutshell.

 

[Doug Thorson]

Hardass Cattle Company

Rules

1 45 days, get bred or get dead.
2 Have your own calf. If I pull it it ain't a bull or replacement heifer.
3 Get him up and sucking no barns, no help, no exceptions.
(one of my registered cows calved about 10:00pm 4/6. temp 0. I seen she had him and his head was up and I rode by and went to bed)
4 Don't prolapse. I just went through the sixth calving season without a prolapse. Every cow that prolapses gets sold along with every animal that traces back to her.
5 Raise your own calf. I refuse to draft calves.
6 Get the job done on grass. No supplemental feed after grass tetnous time.
7 See rule #1.

There are no exceptions cause I'm a hardass.

Doug Thorson

 

[Stretch]

Tap I fully agree with your idea that we all need to follow the mentality of forcing our cattle to be tough and prove they deserve to stay and not be taken to town because they don't measure up. Here a story to ponder. My FIL was telling me about a bunch of young cows he bought one fall from western nebraska years ago. He said he brought them home and put them with his out on stalks. When the weather got bad (snowing,blowing and windy ect) his cows packed in and layed by the trees and hibernated till the weather let up. The western cows all went out and foraged and just acted like it wasn't a big deal. He said anyone could have picked them out of the herd. The next winter he did the same with the cows, put them all out on stalks and by the time the winter was over you had to really look to tell the difference between his original cows and the western ones. He said they didn't forage and hung out with the original bunch and waited for the storm to let up. That story tells me a lot about animals becoming a product of their environment...

 

[Jinglebob]

These posting all remind me of when the buffalo deal got big.

All those proponents of going back to buffalo, cuz' they fit the enviroment. then many of them went and screwed it up by doctoring the sick ones and feeding extra feed so they would do better. thbey just were turning them into pampered cattle, like so many run.

Not saying thats a bad thing, but geez, I thought that's what they were bragging on, that buffalo were livestock you just turned out and sold the excess off from, with out any work!

I always thought you could take any breed and run them like buffalo, and do the same thing, and not have to go to the work of putting up higher fences and re-building all your working facilities and do just as well or maybe even better, than switching to buffalo.

Sounds like Hardass cattle company is pretty much doing it.

Another thought. Deer have gotten a lot thicker in this country where I live in the past 100 years. No one calves them or feeds them. How in the hell have they survived? :shock:

:wink:

:lol: :lol:

And all the deer seem to be a type. All about the same size and weight. Taste about the same.

Wonder if there is anything there for us to learn from? :???:

:lol: :lol:

 

[PureCountry]

Another thought. Deer have gotten a lot thicker in this country where I live in the past 100 years. No one calves them or feeds them. How in the hell have they survived? :shock:

:wink:

:lol: :lol:

And all the deer seem to be a type. All about the same size and weight. Taste about the same.

Wonder if there is anything there for us to learn from? :???:

:lol: :lol:

BINGO!!!! Atta'boy JB! Nothing survives real tough winters in our country like the Mule deer, because they get up in the river hills and paw after that prairie wool. They go into the winter fat as ticks, and they come out lookin' pretty much the same.

A little anecdote of my own.....A neighbour that's retired rents his pasture out to some yahoo's from across the river. They couldn't catch all their cows one fall, and just left 2 of them out there with their calves. One was a little tank of a cow, real fat, with about a 350lb calf at her side. The other was a big raw-boned witch with a big raw-boned calf. They stayed out all winter, and come spring, that fat little cow had a big fat calf at her side, and a big raw-boned calf at her other side. I don't imagine the coyotes ate too well on whatever was left of the other cow.

:wink:

 

[lazy ace]

Another thought. Deer have gotten a lot thicker in this country where I live in the past 100 years. No one calves them or feeds them. How in the hell have they survived? :shock:

:wink:

:lol: :lol:

And all the deer seem to be a type. All about the same size and weight. Taste about the same.

Wonder if there is anything there for us to learn from? :???:

:lol: :lol:

BINGO!!!! Atta'boy JB! Nothing survives real tough winters in our country like the Mule deer, because they get up in the river hills and paw after that prairie wool. They go into the winter fat as ticks, and they come out lookin' pretty much the same.

A little anecdote of my own.....A neighbour that's retired rents his pasture out to some yahoo's from across the river. They couldn't catch all their cows one fall, and just left 2 of them out there with their calves. One was a little tank of a cow, real fat, with about a 350lb calf at her side. The other was a big raw-boned witch with a big raw-boned calf. They stayed out all winter, and come spring, that fat little cow had a big fat calf at her side, and a big raw-boned calf at her other side. I don't imagine the coyotes ate too well on whatever was left of the other cow.

:wink:

We used to have a couple hundred antelope running in this country between us and several neighbors. The winter of 96-97 they seemed to disapear. :shock: The deer survived though (many were foraging in peoples hay corrals and man made tree plots. )

JB if you know of a way to stop the deer from eating baled hay I think you could be rich. I see alot of deer grazing in your ditches down there also. I think they are chasing alfalfa or other introduced grasses. Yes I know they all don't live in ditch but my point is with our advancements which includes anything from(pipeline water, hand made dams and dugouts, introduced species of plants to graze on and more hand planted trees for shelter and browsing) that we have aided in population growth by making it easier. All they have to do is breed....hmm (being shot at a couple times a year doesn't sound so bad) :wink: :wink:

Food for thought

lazy ace

 

[Jinglebob]

We used to have a couple hundred antelope running in this country between us and several neighbors. The winter of 96-97 they seemed to disapear. :shock: The deer survived though (many were foraging in peoples hay corrals and man made tree plots. )

JB if you know of a way to stop the deer from eating baled hay I think you could be rich. I see alot of deer grazing in your ditches down there also. I think they are chasing alfalfa or other introduced grasses. Yes I know they all don't live in ditch but my point is with our advancements which includes anything from(pipeline water, hand made dams and dugouts, introduced species of plants to graze on and more hand planted trees for shelter and browsing) that we have aided in population growth by making it easier. All they have to do is breed....hmm (being shot at a couple times a year doesn't sound so bad) :wink: :wink:

Food for thought

lazy ace

Yup, my thoughts exactly.

I did find a way to keep deer out of alfalfa.



Don't have any alfalfa hay around or put it up realllll late. :wink: they don't seem to bother it as much then.

Yup, we have provided a lot of feed and shelter to the deer, but I notice they still have fawns in May and June. :???:


Seem to be doing real good too. :wink:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[BRG]

To me, the calving season of the seedstock producer doesn't make much of a difference, except, you need to have the age of bulls your customers are wanting. When we switched over to May/June calving, we did loose some of our customers because they only wanted yearlings or they didnot want to buy a bull in the fall. We have been asked by several of our old customers to again supply some yearlings and sell some bulls in the spring again. So we will be starting again next spring, with spring ET calves and fall born ET and natural born calves. So we will have some coming yearlings and 18 month old bulls. We did not really want to have another sale, but when we worked for close to 30 years on the customers we have, we better try to do everything we can to keep them.

I do agree with Tap, the natural way is late spring or early summer calving, and I think it is probably the easiest on the baby calf, but what ever works for you and is profitable is the best way for your operation.

I might be crazy, but here is another thought, we all try to make our cattle look a certain way, like a straight top line, but it is pretty much the opposite of what the wild animals look like. Take a bear for example, they break in their top line or shoulder area pretty bad, but it must be that way for a reason. Not trying to compare beef cows to bears, but just using it as an example. Sometimes I am not sure what is right.