A perfect seedstock operation.

[Badlands]

LOL, I figured you'ld catch that, Jason.

Filling the cows on too much crap roughage and not high enough quality feeds leads to the high % opens that are common in some places down there.

Your analysis above is one way of thinking about it. Another way would be to say, "I think I need to reduce cow size and milk to the level that they will fit my management." Another way would be to say, "I need to quit calving so early that I have to feed large gestation and lactation requirements during the Winter. I will calve a little later."


Badlands

 

[Jinglebob]

It's funny that what I always say a good cows is (one that raises more than she costs) is basically what everyone is agreeing on here, yet I have been labeled as extreme by a few :roll:

I still know some guys think a cow can do well on 20 pounds of hay during the winter. Not many cows will survive on that ration.

My answer to both of these would be, my cows do.

And I'm sure there have been a few chuckles aroundhere when ever I have posted any pictures of my cows. :wink:

Are your cows in total confinement when they live on 20 pounds?

Not saying your cows can't, just there aren't many cows like that left.

Yup, total comfinement. confined in a pasture that was grazed off during the growing season. They get what ever is left over after the stocker cattle are gone. This year, that wasn't much. On cold snowy days, I was feeding them an average of 20 pound of hay a head or less.

Figured out over the whole winter, I guess they probably averaged around 5 pounds perheadperday.

They ate on average about 1 to 2 pounds of extruded soybean a day also.

Bottom line, they didn't cost me much to winter until I bought some thinner 3 year olds for my son and had to feed them better in order to do well and be in shape to calve.

All that being said, my calves will not weight the most or ever top the market, but when you don't have much in them they don't need to bring quite as muc. Especially when they raise a decent calf until they are fifteen or sixteen years old.

We have a guy who lives in this country who used to be well known for his buffalo operation. Last I knew, he was running cattle the same way. No outside inputs unless absolutley necessary. Never starved any, but sure never fed much. Calved later and never even bothered working the calves. Sold them unbranded and bulls and heifers without even dehorning. He used to go to Niobrara Longhorn Bull sale and buy the bulls that were the wildest and stood at the far side of the pen. Claimed then they would be good ones.

He's bought some fairly high priced land around and seems to be doing alright, but you never know. Maybe he had lots of money at one time and has been going broke for years.

All I know is he has been around quite a long time and sure must make some money on his cattle as he don't spend any on them. :wink:

Anybody is welcome to run their cattle or operate any way they want to. I sure don't care. I am busy enough trying to make this place work that I don't realy feel I have all the answers or feel the need to try and tell someone else how to make theirs work. But once in awhile I like to express my opinion.

 

[RobertMac]

LOL, I figured you'ld catch that, Jason.

Filling the cows on too much crap roughage and not high enough quality feeds leads to the high % opens that are common in some places down there.

Your analysis above is one way of thinking about it. Another way would be to say, "I think I need to reduce cow size and milk to the level that they will fit my management." Another way would be to say, "I need to quit calving so early that I have to feed large gestation and lactation requirements during the Winter. I will calve a little later."


Badlands

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

See Badlands, I told you we think more alike than different...but then you hang with a pretty good group! 8)

I drew a curve of my yearly forage growth and asked Dr. Diven when I should calve...he pointed right to the peak, May. Best move I ever made!

But once in awhile I like to express my opinion.

What would we get if you were obsessively opinionated??? :wink: :lol: :lol:
Easy keeping cows are a lot more fun! I like your website...gave me some ideas when I get around to redoing the one my ex-partner did.

 

[Jinglebob]

What would we get if you were obsessively opinionated??? :wink: :lol: :lol:

Treat me like all of those that are, on here, I suppose. :wink:

 

[Soapweed]

What would we get if you were obsessively opinionated??? :wink: :lol: :lol:

Treat me like all of those that are, on here, I suppose. :wink:

Opinions are kind of like chins. Everyone has one but some of us just stick them out farther. :wink:

 

[Jinglebob]

What would we get if you were obsessively opinionated??? :wink: :lol: :lol:

Treat me like all of those that are, on here, I suppose. :wink:

Opinions are kind of like chins. Everyone has one but some of us just stick them out farther. :wink:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Jason]

So far no takers I see

They ate on average about 1 to 2 pounds of extruded soybean a day also.

Even Jingles cows "need" grain :wink:

Actually feeding whatever is cheapest and works is what I have always said.

Here's a statement I can agree with 100%

when you don't have much in them they don't need to bring quite as muc. Especially when they raise a decent calf until they are fifteen or sixteen years old.

More than 20% of my herd is over 10 years of age.

If a particular management style adds 10 cents a day cost to your calves but adds $50 to their value in the fall, how many would do it?

Calving on peak grass is an interesting idea, and works for some, but actually can pencil higher than calving pre grass when all costs are included.

 

[Jinglebob]

So far no takers I see

They ate on average about 1 to 2 pounds of extruded soybean a day also.

Even Jingles cows "need" grain :wink:

DIDN'T "NEED" IT, BUT I FELT BETTER GIVING IT TO THEM. IT WAS CHEAPER THAN THE COST OF HAY. LEAST COST HIGHEST PROFITS SEEM TO BE THE BEST WAY TO GO, IF PROFIT IS YOUR ONLY MOTIVATION.

Actually feeding whatever is cheapest and works is what I have always said.

Here's a statement I can agree with 100%

when you don't have much in them they don't need to bring quite as muc. Especially when they raise a decent calf until they are fifteen or sixteen years old.

More than 20% of my herd is over 10 years of age.

If a particular management style adds 10 cents a day cost to your calves but adds $50 to their value in the fall, how many would do it?FOR HOW MANY DAYS?

Calving on peak grass is an interesting idea, and works for some, but actually can pencil higher than calving pre grass when all costs are included.IS THAT TRUE FOR EVERYONE OR JUST ON YOUR OPERATION?

 

[Badlands]

I'm not a big fan of calving on peak grass. I'm more of a fan of breeding on peak grass or just slightly after.

When they calve is secondary to when they breed, IMO.

If we breed on peak grass, or slightly after, the cows have wintered and milked off their back, are gaining well, will cycle and settle. If we calve on peak grass, I think there is a lot of "waste" in the system. They Winter off their back if they have to, or not if they are calving late enough, then they milk while they are eating grass, then they never have to regain condition to breed. I don't think it is very "natural". They don't cycle through their body fat as much as when breeding on of slightly after peak grass, IMO.

I sure haven't been able to find any of the old guys that bred cows to calve in May. About everytime I find an old guy in my home area, they turned out the bulls the 4th of July, then went to town. Or turned them out the 5th of July before they went to bed from the festivities of the 4th of July!

This has been consistent from the folks I have asked. Except for the guys who left the bulls out year round. Then their cows calved when everyone else's did, except for the stragglers. That put's it right at the 15th of April.

Over the course of time, in hese herds that left the bulls out year-round it looks like the cattle in my home area tended to breed about peak grass, rather than calve on peak grass.

Badlands

 

[Jinglebob]

I'm not a big fan of calving on peak grass. I'm more of a fan of breeding on peak grass or just slightly after.

When they calve is secondary to when they breed, IMO.

If we breed on peak grass, or slightly after, the cows have wintered and milked off their back, are gaining well, will cycle and settle. If we calve on peak grass, I think there is a lot of "waste" in the system. They Winter off their back if they have to, or not if they are calving late enough, then they milk while they are eating grass, then they never have to regain condition to breed. I don't think it is very "natural". They don't cycle through their body fat as much as when breeding on of slightly after peak grass, IMO.

I sure haven't been able to find any of the old guys that bred cows to calve in May. About everytime I find an old guy in my home area, they turned out the bulls the 4th of July, then went to town. Or turned them out the 5th of July before they went to bed from the festivities of the 4th of July!

This has been consistent from the folks I have asked. Except for the guys who left the bulls out year round. Then their cows calved when everyone else's did, except for the stragglers. That put's it right at the 15th of April.

Over the course of time, in hese herds that left the bulls out year-round it looks like the cattle in my home area tended to breed about peak grass, rather than calve on peak grass.

Badlands

:agree:

 

[Doug Thorson]

Well stated Badlands.

 

[RobertMac]

Dr. Diven sites studies that show cow condition at calving is most important to breed back.

That said, I've been calving starting the last of April, the 28th this year. This year I was planning to do exactly as you stated...put the bull out on or just after the 4th. I get them in good, pre-calving condition rotating them thru rye/ryegrass and condition them for breeding (or hold what they got) on early summer forage. Going to be tougher on them this year with no spring rains to get the warm season grasses going.

 

[Badlands]

Dr. Diven sites studies that show cow condition at calving is most important to breed back.

Right, RobertMac.

But, let's go beyond the surface.

The studies that Dr Diven cites, were made after folks started selecting for more performance and started calving earlier, and ran into trouble with cattle rebreeding. In those situations, it is very true. If you calve in the Winter, they dang well better have some condition on them, because they are trying to breed before peak forage.

However, he then extrapolates the same result to Summer calving systems. I don't think that BCS at calving is as important in April calving systems as it is in February calving systems. And in Summer calving systems, I think it's even less important.

Although it may be a trap. By the time they breed in the Summer, they are eating pretty low quality stuff, so then it kind of becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy that they have to be fat when they calve in the Summer, doesn't it? I think the Summer calving programs waste resources because they run behind the peak, whereas Winter programs are costly because they are ahead of the peak.

Maybe both of them are "out of sync" with Nature so then they have to have enough BCS at calving to rebreed?

Badlands

 

[Faster horses]

Badlands, that was very interesting.
Thanks. And I think that information was right on,
although I hadn't thought it through that much before.

 

[Jinglebob]

My biggest reason for later spring calving is that it takes less high quality feed through the harshest months, to keep a cow in good shape to calve, feed a calf and re-breed.

Dec, Jan, Feb are usually out harshest months for temps. Cows need the most high quality feed as soon as they calve and slighly less in the last trimester.

We usually are gettin green grass by the first to mid April with lush growth in May, June and sometimes even July. I want them to calve on grass so that mother nature can provide all that high protien, high quality feed they need when the calf is born.

We also are in a hard grass area. You take thin cows and pull the calves off in Oct, Nov and cows will fatten up on the grass alone.


I can sell smaller calves for less and still maintain profit, if I don't have to spend as much on the winter feed bill for the cow.

 

[Faster horses]

JB, although I am not sure, I would bet you meant to state that
differently.

Cattle requirements are MORE in the entire third trimester.

If they are thin when they calve, you can't hardly put weight
on them until green grass.

As Badlands indicated, when calving later the cows can be in a little
poorer condition since green grass is just around the corner.
When you calve in winter (Jan-Feb-early March) you better have
a lot of feed to pour to those girls because it sure takes a lot of
it.

We did say the same thing, didn't we?

 

[Badlands]

I think your tangs are toungled, that's all.

You are saying the same thing. JB just worded it so lactation came before the 3rd trimester.

3rd trimester would have lower nutrient requirements than early lactation.

But the real expense happens when feeding in the last trimester during Dec, Jan, Feb.

I think if you pin a couple of the lower input guys down, they will admit that they are out of sync with Nature, but in a more inexpensive manner than the Winter calvers. They talk about being lower input first, and in sync 2nd. So, I think as time passes, they will talk less and less about being in sync.

Badlands

 

[Jinglebob]

Listen to what I mean and not to what I say, comes to mind on my posting! :lol:

Yup, you both understood. :wink:

 

[Tap]

Listen to what I mean and not to what I say, comes to mind on my posting! :lol:

Yup, you both understood. :wink:

I've about exhausted myself with this topic. It is kind of like talking politics. You can argue with someone till you are blue in the face, and neither give an inch when it is over. So live and let live I say. :wink:

 

[Jinglebob]

Listen to what I mean and not to what I say, comes to mind on my posting! :lol:

Yup, you both understood. :wink:

I've about exhausted myself with this topic. It is kind of like talking politics. You can argue with someone till you are blue in the face, and neither give an inch when it is over. So live and let live I say. :wink:

Weeeelll, don't know as I would agree with that!


:wink: