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A perfect seedstock operation.

That's a really interesting thread BRG. I've often thought about the phenotype of animals and why they are built the way they are. When you look at ruminants, there's really no pattern though. Elk, deer, moose, antelope, they're all quite different. The few common traits though, are the feet and legs, small, tight udders, and the fact that they all flesh up very easily in the fall.

And the reason I mentioned Mule deer, and not whitetails, is that the Mulies in this part of the country always seem to survive harsh weather better than the Whities, and it's never a Mule deer in the bale yards. The Whitetails will be there every night, but the Mulies scrape and dig for their survival.
 
Jinglebob said:
lazy ace said:
We used to have a couple hundred antelope running in this country between us and several neighbors. The winter of 96-97 they seemed to disapear. :shock: The deer survived though (many were foraging in peoples hay corrals and man made tree plots. )

JB if you know of a way to stop the deer from eating baled hay I think you could be rich. :) I see alot of deer grazing in your ditches down there also. I think they are chasing alfalfa or other introduced grasses. Yes I know they all don't live in ditch but my point is with our advancements which includes anything from(pipeline water, hand made dams and dugouts, introduced species of plants to graze on and more hand planted trees for shelter and browsing) that we have aided in population growth by making it easier. All they have to do is breed....hmm (being shot at a couple times a year doesn't sound so bad) :wink: :wink:

Food for thought

lazy ace
Click to expand...

Yup, my thoughts exactly.

I did find a way to keep deer out of alfalfa.



Don't have any alfalfa hay around or put it up realllll late. :wink: they don't seem to bother it as much then.

Yup, we have provided a lot of feed and shelter to the deer, but I notice they still have fawns in May and June. :???:


Seem to be doing real good too. :wink:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

I'm not argueing with May and June calving or fawning. When grandpa and dad lambed it was always after the 5th of May on pasture. We start calving heifers mid to end March and cows end of March and the first part of April. We have sold bred heifers in our sale and a lot of guys won't look at them because they calve to late. We don't plan on making any changes because it fits in to what we do around here. Grandpa just turned 88 and is still very active. He would like to start calving earlier but dad likes it the way it is now. He has been in the cow business for 71 years and the purebred business for over forty. The amount of change he has seen in the cattle industry is overwhelming.

have a good one (raining again today :D that puts us close to 7 inches in the last ten days. :) :) :) For those of you who need rain I sure hope you get it because we appreciate everything that is falling.)



lazy ace
 
Good reading in this post.

Lazy Ace, maybe grampa wants to calve earlier because he ain't the one out there in the cold, checkin' at night?

"but what ever works for you and is profitable is the best way for your operation."
Truer words were never spoken BRG and you are sure right. Everybody ought to do as they see fit and nobody who ain't ridin' in their boots ought to give them hell about it. Still, it is kind'a fun to poke a little fun at each other. :wink:


Pure country, sure wish we had mulies. tho' by not keeping any "good" hay around I haven't had too much problems lately. some I got this year was pretty nice alfalfa and they came in on a few of the colder days and worked on it a little.

As for body types or anything else concerning animals, I think mankind has tended to really screw up most animals we have domesticated, because we could improve on what Mother Nature came up with. Not all has been bad, but many of us have lost sight that a cow was designed by nature, just as a deer, to utilize rough forage.

Mother nature designed, or at least re- adapted, the ol' longhorn, the deer, the horse and many others that man either didn't want to mess with or couldn't, at the time.

It's really something, when you think of all the doifferent adaptations we as humans have domne to all the domestic animals that we surround ourselves with!

And there are a lot of good reasons to feed one better or provide better for them. The question I always have to ask myself, is it really profitable, when you look at the whole picture?

But then what the hell do I know? If I was so dang smart, I'd be rich in money instead of friends.
:wink:
 
When I started with Tuli cattle in Rhodesia in 1970, it was because they had been selected from cattle already adapted to the harsh environment of the sub tropical 'bushveld' where I lived, and are the ultimate easy keepers in that wnvironment. The climate here in North Carolina is not anywhere near as challanging, but their heat resistence, fertility and tidy udders, have attracted the attention of local commercial breeders looking for an adapted Bos Taurus breed to use as a base breed in their crossbreeding programs.
Purecountry, you are right about phenotype variences, consider the wildlife on my farm, all adapted to the same environment yet copletely different in conformation; Kudu, Eland, Cape Buffalo, giraffe and impala, no common charactaristics at all. If you are interested in seeing the Tuli phenotype. the photo album on this site has both show and ranch cattle;
www.tuli.co.za/
 
Well, since I am the reason this all got started, when I ruffled Tap's feathers, while teasing him a little for this statement:

Tap said:
Also with exceptions such as Pure Country's operation, most registered breeders don't make their cattle work as hard as us commercial guys. I always say you should buy bulls from someone who runs their cattle in tougher conditions than yourself.
Click to expand...
and my reply of:

Geez Tap...not all of us are as bad as you want to make us out to be! :wink: :lol: We are kind enough to share a little rain, and you get all kinds of squirrelly on us :lol2:
Click to expand...

Which lead to this thread.

I wrote this earlier today, and have been sitting on it. Wondering if I'm just adding fuel to the fire, or maybe explaining our situation, and hoping others will be open minded as to why our operation does some of the stuff we do.....I am afraid that I will regret posting this, but if you take no risk, you receive no gain, either.

Tap said:
This thread has taken the direction I thought it would. I understand every angle why this would not work on some operations, BUT what I tried to lay out is how I would like to see things in a perfect world.

TTB, two things I wanted to point out. We are not aiming to be seedstock producers of any type. Other than I do think we have some calves that would make very good bulls to use in our late herd. No calves from our late herd will be kept for replacements, so getting a good thrifty calf is most important to us. And I am not worried about BW in our own cattle either.

Second is that before all else integrity and honesty are the biggest factors to us in dealing on bulls. The info us commercial guys get is only as good as the people providing it. SO, I know that we would have absolutely no problem dealing with your guys outfit. Western SD is a small world, so your good reputation preceeds you.

We already do buy our bulls from an outfit that runs their cowherd about the way I like. The bulls they sell go to a feedlot (at weaning) that feeds them plenty heavy, but they wouldn't have made it to that point if they hadn't been survivors.

Here are a couple shots of a few new bulls trying to get out of the rain and wind we had today. They are June born coming two year olds. Got a strong 80 hundredths of rain here today. :D Life is good!
Click to expand...


Tap, I am glad you got some much needed moisture. Indeed, life is good!

I spent last evening and part of today contemplating whether I should respond or not, and if I did, what I'd say.

My reasoning is this, I did not post my reply to look for your complement, although I do appreciate it, or to validate that we're a good operation, although we make it our goal to produce cattle that perform well at our operation, our customer's outfits, in the feedlot and on the rail and plate. Sometimes we succeed in our goal, sometimes we do not.

I posted my reply to illustrate why we run our operation as we do.

We range calve all of our cows. Some years our cows receive very little hay or supplement. lazy ace talks of times where we have had the luxury of grazing for 30 months straight. We have taken pride in being good range stewards and stockpiling grass for fall and winter grazing. Last years fires took away our stockpile grazing.

Yes, our registered cows get to come in closer to the place when a blizzard is forecast, whether it is calving time or not. That is because we don't have the best windbreak in the form of breaks, creeks, and trees for them to go into in case of bad weather in the calving pastures. We have some tree rows around "headquarters."

Some would consider providing that shelter pampering our cows. I am sorry, but I consider that good husbandry.

I am not so sure I could look myself in the eye knowing that a cow died in a blizzard because I did not provide her shelter. I think there is even a verse or two in the bible about providing care and shelter for livestock...maybe Red Robin, Soapweed, or Shortgrass can help me out. Likewise if a cow needed calving assistance and we did not provide.

I do have a question however, and it's not meant specifically for any one person but everyone...

In my six or seven year membership of ranchers.net, I've noticed continually one thing...the next worse person/operation to the packer is the seedstock provider. We all get lumped into the bad operator/shyster category. If you were new to the business and read these posts, you'd think the only goal of the seedstock operator is to deceive, rob, and pilfer the industry.

Tap, you make this statement:
"Second is that before all else integrity and honesty are the biggest factors to us in dealing on bulls. The info us commercial guys get is only as good as the people providing it."

You know what, seedstock producers are in this same position. The information we get on our herd bulls is the exact same info. commercial operators get.

We do our best to know all we can about a bull or female before adding their genetics to our herd. We do our homework by looking at the dam and sire, if at all possible, and try to learn about their pedigree, performance, carcass, and determine if they have the ability to add a positive set of genetics to our herd in terms of do-ability and economics, and still have a nice disposition, etc, while not adding bad feet and udders.

You see we have just as much, if not more, at stake than the commercial producer. Not only does our decision impact our herd, but it impacts our customer's herds too. We do not take our responsibility in this arena lightly!

There are operators who run their outfits with honesty and integrity in all facets of our business. There are those who do not.

We have been burnt by both commercial and seedstock operators who do not operate in this fashion. Yes, there are commercial outfits who do not possess the same character as you do. I know of one in particular who is "banned" from attending several breeders production sales because of his lack of integrity. I know of another who "hung" a fellow breeder for a good chunk of change by not paying for his bulls and/or writing bad checks. Does this mean I should lump all commercial producers in this category, absolutely not.

Tap, I appreciate your goal. In many ways, I wish we could run our outfit like you say is "ideal." Our land-base doesn't afford us this opportunity at this time. In the future, it may.

Ironically, my Mom and Dad are registered Hereford breeders, and would fit your mold. They have not always run their outfit in this fashion, but adding a ranch in the high desert of NW NM to their high mountain Colorado ranch allowed them this opportunity. Our NM country reminds me very much of your outfit...same plants and topography.

I have come to the conclusion this is a no win argument. No one will be correct, no one will be wrong.

Thanks for offering the stimulating conversation. I am sure after giving more thought to was has been said, after I wrote this earlier, I'll ask more questions, or point things out. When I ask, please don't say I'm not being open minded...I am just asking.

I do know one thing, life as a seedstock producer is not as wonderful and glamorous as some make it out to be. At best it is a gratifying life, at it's worst, it is heart breaking and gut wrenching. Without a doubt, all that glitters isn't gold.

Cheers---

TTB :wink:
 
Much of the seedstock talk is ego and salesmanship.


Most anybody can graze cows all winter if they find enough cheap grass to lease. It doesn't mean the cows are working very hard. They might be running on 2-3 times as many acres as the commercial guys in the area, just to be able to brag about it and make sales.


No point in seedstock guys being "harder on their cows" either. If you don't buy a fat, pampered bull because the environmental differences bring trouble in your herd, then why buy bulls that are stressed more? Buying pampered bulls mean you bought too much performance for your area. Buying "tough" bulls means you are leaving performance money on the table.


When we get into all these "rules" to make good cows, we just gain advertising status. It doesn't really guarantee the cattle are better.

Know your seedstock producer, and know his cows. But don't ever assume that you really know what he is doing at his ranch.

Badlands
 
Badlands said:
Much of the seedstock talk is ego and salesmanship.


Most anybody can graze cows all winter if they find enough cheap grass to lease. It doesn't mean the cows are working very hard. They might be running on 2-3 times as many acres as the commercial guys in the area, just to be able to brag about it and make sales.


No point in seedstock guys being "harder on their cows" either. If you don't buy a fat, pampered bull because the environmental differences bring trouble in your herd, then why buy bulls that are stressed more? Buying pampered bulls mean you bought too much performance for your area. Buying "tough" bulls means you are leaving performance money on the table.


When we get into all these "rules" to make good cows, we just gain advertising status. It doesn't really guarantee the cattle are better.

Know your seedstock producer, and know his cows. But don't ever assume that you really know what he is doing at his ranch.

Badlands
Click to expand...

:agree: :tiphat: :clap: :agree: :tiphat: :clap:

Well said Badlands. I couldn't agree more!

Cheers---

TTB :wink:
 
Thanks TTB. I can pretty much agree with what you said. I know you are not talking about me classifying breeders as being low on the totem pole. I think more could be done by working with other segments of the industry than using all the energy tearing it down.

I could give you a list of registered breeders we have worked with that we have nothing but good things to say about. Even when we haven't been happy about something or other, we felt that the information we received was 100% factual. I would NEVER want to be in your guys position of dealing with the public all the time. I sure couldn't handle it.

Don't worry about offending me. Sometimes things need to be said, and the h#ll with the consequences. lol.
 
No point in seedstock guys being "harder on their cows" either. If you don't buy a fat, pampered bull because the environmental differences bring trouble in your herd, then why buy bulls that are stressed more? Buying pampered bulls mean you bought too much performance for your area. Buying "tough" bulls means you are leaving performance money on the table.
Click to expand...

Can't agree witht that part, because if no one put any pressure on cattle how can they get better? The cream has to rise to the top so to speak.

Why cull then?
 
I kind of like the deal of AIing some of your own females to get some bull calves just for your own use. Get to keep that bull sale money in your own pocket, and at least it's going to be out of a female that you darn sure like.
 
TTB said:
You know what, seedstock producers are in this same position. The information we get on our herd bulls is the exact same info. commercial operators get.

We do our best to know all we can about a bull or female before adding their genetics to our herd. We do our homework by looking at the dam and sire, if at all possible, and try to learn about their pedigree, performance, carcass, and determine if they have the ability to add a positive set of genetics to our herd in terms of do-ability and economics, and still have a nice disposition, etc, while not adding bad feet and udders.
Click to expand...

TTB, I don't mean this question to be directed at you specifically or to make you defensive, but to all seedstock producers...

Why use someone else's genetics for your herdsire?

Badlands said:
No point in seedstock guys being "harder on their cows" either. If you don't buy a fat, pampered bull because the environmental differences bring trouble in your herd, then why buy bulls that are stressed more? Buying pampered bulls mean you bought too much performance for your area. Buying "tough" bulls means you are leaving performance money on the table.
Click to expand...

Just because a seedstocker raises his cattle the same as the commercial producer doesn't mean they are stressed.(Seems like I remember you chastising Jason for going to extremes to try to make a point.) :wink: If seedstock cattle aren't better than the commercial man's cattle under the same conditions, can they really help the commercial man's cattle? It's much easier to identify flawed genetics when cattle aren't fed to "express their full genetic potential"! 8)
 
RB,

We use other breeders genetics for several reasons, one is to bring in other bloodlines. We do use our own herdsires as well, but you have to bring it in especially if you do not AI much to outside sources. I personally feel more confident in using a bull I have seen along with his dam instead of using a bull by the photo. In fact, I try not to use one if I have not seen his dam. Sometimes I find a cow out there that is awesome and I want to bring her genetics in. Or I see sons and daughters out of a certain bull that is just what I am looking for. Their are several reasons why we bring in outside genetics, but these are just a few. Also, someone always has something better than what you have, and that is how you can improve what you already have.
 
Cal said:
I kind of like the deal of AIing some of your own females to get some bull calves just for your own use. Get to keep that bull sale money in your own pocket, and at least it's going to be out of a female that you darn sure like.
Click to expand...
This can work well Cal, but you still need the seedstock producer to breed the bull supplying your semen. The ideal structure is to have reputable breeders with a big enough gene pool to continually improve their herds' performance to some degree with each generation (as in the pig industry), then the smaller producers invest in improved bulls to multiply those genetics for the commercial breeders in their area. I have four local commercial breeders actively involved in my program as advisors, this gives these customers first hand knowledge of the herd from which they will be buying bulls, and is an insurance against my being tempted to keep back a marginal bull. At present I can make more out of my direct marketing scheme than from a bull, so the incentive to proiduce anything short of what is required by my customers does not exist, but I really cannot afford to leave anything to chance at this early stage in a new market if I want to develop the same reputation I had with my origional herd.
 
If I recall correctly, Larry Leonhardt says the most important individual
in a bull's pedigree is the granddam on the dam's side. That cow side
is soooooooo important if you are keeping replacement heifers.

I personally don't think your herd can improve very fast using
your own bulls. We have done that and got along fine, but they
were bulls used for heifers. We knew the cows (registered) and we AI'd to
Traveler 23-4. Got along fine, but we wouldn't do it across the board.
 
Tap wrote (from cattle and gumbo lillies:)


lazy ace, I don't know where to start with you.


No, we did not lose any ears during that storm last year. They were either dead or alive after it, but no frozen ears. It was 32 degrees during the whole storm.

Second, we did build some windbreaks, but windbreaks aren't only built for calving time. We do not want to screw with cattle too much during a storm, and we hope they blow into the windbreaks if they do not find other natural shelter.

I am sure most of this is in reference to my other post on seedstock operations, and it probably belongs there, but I will try again to explain myself.

Again, my other post was regarding how I think ranchers marketing bulls could help to improve their customers herds. I also said that I know all operations cannot fit that mold, but it still is how I feel about it. You tried to make a point that calving in mid April can still be prone to snow storms, but I do not really think calving then can be classified as calving on green grass. Maybe May 1 or later on most years would be, but even the first part of May can be tough weather sometimes. But that is arguing a minute point. Late calving does not work unless a ranch is managed as a low cost operation either. There is less input, but most of the time less return too. If we took a 10% calf loss once every ten years (which we have not), that would only lower our ten year average calf crop by 1%. I hate dead calves any time, but with less labor here, we have too many cows to calve them all in close. And the added sickness and work involved does not appeal to me anyway. I want to get our two's so that they can calve mostly on their own out on pasture, and we are nearly there. I guess that is why I like angus so well. Good genetics can be trouble free cattle.

If you want a better example of what I meant, then here is a better one.

We decided that when we expanded our ranch, that we should spread our risk out some, and calve one bunch of cows a little later. The last herd started calving around the 23 of April, give or take a few days. These are cows that were mostly purchased, and came from several different ranches, so there would be a better sample. We bred them to 3 hereford and 6 angus bulls last summer, turn in date July 15. Starting on Jan. 20th of this year we fed them 3# of 30% cake every other day till April 20th. So they were supplemented for 90 days, or 45 feedings. So at 200$/ton for the cake they had 13.50$ per head in them plus the cost of the fuel, pickup, etc... They also were fed a total of a third of a ton of hay per head, and I will value the hay at 60$/ton, which may sound low for last year, but it was pretty bad hay that was put up late last year. So that is 20$/cow for the hay. They were fed some salt too, but that could not even add up to a dollar a head/cow. So added up, the cost of the hay, cake, and salt would be 34.50$/cow for winter feed.

When the cows started calving we tried to see them every other day, but it got to be 3 or 4 or even 5 days when we were busy fencing, or helping at the neighbors. We have found just a few dead calves,(yes, I did say found on purpose, cause we may have missed something) and one dead cow. She died just recently with all 4 feet under her like lightning hit her, but it may have been calving problems, but I doubt it. For some reason the problems you encounter later on are just very few. I have heard several reasons for this like smaller calves, and cows being scattered out grazing are not knocking into each other and causing the calves to be abnormal presentations. Who knows, but I do know it is a fact that it is so. On our homeraised cows, we helped one cow out, and she would have had the calf, but the head was swollen and he would have been dead by the time she got him out. Not trying to pat ourselves on the back by any means, but trying to let others know how much fun life can be if you let it. If it worked in this herd, it can in others.

Be open minded my son. lol.

If you don't quit jabbing me, I will rescind my invitation to you to come over, and only invite TTB.

I might add more, but my brain is shot and my fingers are tired.
Click to expand...

Jinglebob wrote:

Great presentation. And by someone who has seen both, in a given year.

One point I think most people forget about with a later calving herd, is the savings on winter feed.

Thanks for summing this up so well Tap.Tap all I was pointing out is that it is better to be prepared for cold weather calving no matter when you calf.
Click to expand...

Tap all I was pointing out is that it is better to be prepared for cold weather calving no matter when you calf.
You say you are just letting people know how fun things can be by later calving. Well Tap if you really want to have fun back that whole calving thing back to August. We used to fall calve a few cows in the nineties but when it got dry they were the easiest to sell. The gentlemen who bought them is still fall calving them. I know the first thing you will say is that it takes to much feed to winter a pair. :roll: :roll: Well not really, we wintered them with our younger cows and they did just fine. The calves ate cake and hay just like the cows did.

You seem to have more natural shelter than we do, and no offense but you kind of live in the Banana belt during the winter. (meaning you catch more Chinooks than we do)

The advantages we found calving in late fall
1. Gives the bulls something to do for the fall instead of fight.
2. You can wean calves right off the cow and hit the grass market. (We weaned at all different times Jan to March. We usually back grounded them before we sold them)
3. We would hold our replacement heifers over and breed them for spring (We felt it gave them a little extra time to mature and found out that they usually brought in the bigger calves at weaning.)
4. You can synchronize them, AI them and use proven herd bulls.(This could be done in the spring also.)


The disadvantages
1.The cows almost got too fat on grass.
2. Flys during calving
3. Our customers didn't pay any more for the aged bull. (I don't know why but it seems ten years later every Tom, Dick and Harry are still wanting an aged bull for yearling bull price.

As far as your feeding program goes it sounds pretty cheap and economical but it sounds like exactly what we do. We usually start a little earlier but quit feeding our purebreds about mid April so I guess we might have an extra week or two of feeding compared to you. :shock: :shock:

Tap my mind is open I have had the opportunity to see ranches from Calgary to the Gulf coast in Texas, the Carolina's to New Mexico. I have asked more questions about how cattle are developed, weaned, wintered and yes what time of the year they calf and why. I have learned more about cattle in the past 5 years than you can even imagine. I know the way we do things can be improved and we are making strides to be more efficient and better. The only difference between you and I is the fact that I fully know I haven't cornered the market on the perfect seed stock operation and you think you have. :lol: :lol:

The most impressive commercial outfit I have been to was in central Nebraska. He ran about a couple thousand cows and holds the calves over for yearlings. He fence line weans and it takes a cake pickup and about 6 to 8 riders and the cows follow the cake pickup along a fence with 3 gates about a hundred yards apart and the riders peel cows on one side and calves on the other. He can wean 600 head in fifteen minutes. He shuts the gates loads the pony's and leaves them there for about three days and then trails them home and winters them on cake and grass.

If you don't want me to take jabs at you don't stick your chin out so dang far. :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:

have a good one

lazy ace
 
3. Our customers didn't pay any more for the aged bull. (I don't know why but it seems ten years later every Tom, Dick and Harry are still wanting an aged bull for yearling bull price.


Ohhhh...tell me about it!!!!! This drives me NUTZ!!!
 
Quote:
No point in seedstock guys being "harder on their cows" either. If you don't buy a fat, pampered bull because the environmental differences bring trouble in your herd, then why buy bulls that are stressed more? Buying pampered bulls mean you bought too much performance for your area. Buying "tough" bulls means you are leaving performance money on the table.




Can't agree witht that part, because if no one put any pressure on cattle how can they get better? The cream has to rise to the top so to speak.

Why cull then?
Click to expand...

Tap,

We are probably thinking of different kinds of "pressure". I'm talking about putting more than reasonable pressure on yearling bulls. There is no point to that. Just because they are tough enough to make it under extreme conditions doesn't mean they are great bulls to improve a herd. I think the "pressure" you are talking about is running cows under "commercial conditions", with culling for disposition, udders, feet, etc. I agree with you on that.


Badlands wrote:
No point in seedstock guys being "harder on their cows" either. If you don't buy a fat, pampered bull because the environmental differences bring trouble in your herd, then why buy bulls that are stressed more? Buying pampered bulls mean you bought too much performance for your area. Buying "tough" bulls means you are leaving performance money on the table.


Just because a seedstocker raises his cattle the same as the commercial producer doesn't mean they are stressed.(Seems like I remember you chastising Jason for going to extremes to try to make a point.) If seedstock cattle aren't better than the commercial man's cattle under the same conditions, can they really help the commercial man's cattle? It's much easier to identify flawed genetics when cattle aren't fed to "express their full genetic potential"!
Click to expand...

You are missing the boat, RobertMac. I'm talking about finding a purebred guy that runs his cattle as much like the commercial customers as possible. Stressing them by restricting feed has nothing to do with improving conditions/profitability for the customers in that situation. It wasn't an extreme argument by any stretch of the imagination. Your phrasing of this sentence, "Just because a seedstocker raises his cattle the same as the commercial producer doesn't mean they are stressed." makes it sound like you want to buy stressed bulls. If that is the case, you are buying bulls that are run under different conditions than your herd----Why do that? It introduces genetic by environment interactions; they are of the opposite nature of the interaction when buying pampered bulls. That was the point of my original post. Don't buy pampered bulls, and don't buy stressed bulls, BOTH will end up lieing to you about their level of performance. If that is an extreme argument, I'll eat my hat.

What I have done is eliminate both ends of the bell curve, rather than the end that I am opposed to that helps me sell bulls, or helps me justify my thinking that I'm really doing the "right thing" with no way to prove it. Well, after I write it, I realize that the 2nd point is just more of the first point. It's about marketing, and convincing the commercial guy that the seedstock guy really has his best interest in mind.

I am amazed in the faith that folks put in their seedstock producer. I have seen cleft palates, dwarves, and other kinds of defects out of several generations of breeder's bulls and the folks just keep going back. I've seen good folks run into problems with size or too much ZZZ or too little AAA and still go back to buy more bulls from the same guy. We somehow form habits in our thinking that we can't get away from.

This idea of pampered vs. tough bulls is one of those ideas. It looks good on the surface, but it is phony.


Badlands
 

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