Well, since I am the reason this all got started, when I ruffled Tap's feathers, while teasing him a little for this statement:
Tap said:
Also with exceptions such as Pure Country's operation, most registered breeders don't make their cattle work as hard as us commercial guys. I always say you should buy bulls from someone who runs their cattle in tougher conditions than yourself.
and my reply of:
Geez Tap...not all of us are as bad as you want to make us out to be! :wink: :lol: We are kind enough to share a little rain, and you get all kinds of squirrelly on us :lol2:
Which lead to this thread.
I wrote this earlier today, and have been sitting on it. Wondering if I'm just adding fuel to the fire, or maybe explaining our situation, and hoping others will be open minded as to why our operation does some of the stuff we do.....I am afraid that I will regret posting this, but if you take no risk, you receive no gain, either.
Tap said:
This thread has taken the direction I thought it would. I understand every angle why this would not work on some operations, BUT what I tried to lay out is how I would like to see things in a perfect world.
TTB, two things I wanted to point out. We are not aiming to be seedstock producers of any type. Other than I do think we have some calves that would make very good bulls to use in our late herd. No calves from our late herd will be kept for replacements, so getting a good thrifty calf is most important to us. And I am not worried about BW in our own cattle either.
Second is that before all else integrity and honesty are the biggest factors to us in dealing on bulls. The info us commercial guys get is only as good as the people providing it. SO, I know that we would have absolutely no problem dealing with your guys outfit. Western SD is a small world, so your good reputation preceeds you.
We already do buy our bulls from an outfit that runs their cowherd about the way I like. The bulls they sell go to a feedlot (at weaning) that feeds them plenty heavy, but they wouldn't have made it to that point if they hadn't been survivors.
Here are a couple shots of a few new bulls trying to get out of the rain and wind we had today. They are June born coming two year olds. Got a strong 80 hundredths of rain here today.
Life is good!
Tap, I am glad you got some much needed moisture. Indeed, life is good!
I spent last evening and part of today contemplating whether I should respond or not, and if I did, what I'd say.
My reasoning is this, I did not post my reply to look for your complement, although I do appreciate it, or to validate that we're a good operation, although we make it our goal to produce cattle that perform well at our operation, our customer's outfits, in the feedlot and on the rail and plate. Sometimes we succeed in our goal, sometimes we do not.
I posted my reply to illustrate why we run our operation as we do.
We range calve all of our cows. Some years our cows receive very little hay or supplement. lazy ace talks of times where we have had the luxury of grazing for 30 months straight. We have taken pride in being good range stewards and stockpiling grass for fall and winter grazing. Last years fires took away our stockpile grazing.
Yes, our registered cows get to come in closer to the place when a blizzard is forecast, whether it is calving time or not. That is because we don't have the best windbreak in the form of breaks, creeks, and trees for them to go into in case of bad weather in the calving pastures. We have some tree rows around "headquarters."
Some would consider providing that shelter pampering our cows. I am sorry, but I consider that good husbandry.
I am not so sure I could look myself in the eye knowing that a cow died in a blizzard because I did not provide her shelter. I think there is even a verse or two in the bible about providing care and shelter for livestock...maybe Red Robin, Soapweed, or Shortgrass can help me out. Likewise if a cow needed calving assistance and we did not provide.
I do have a question however, and it's not meant specifically for any one person but everyone...
In my six or seven year membership of ranchers.net, I've noticed continually one thing...the next worse person/operation to the packer is the seedstock provider. We all get lumped into the bad operator/shyster category. If you were new to the business and read these posts, you'd think the only goal of the seedstock operator is to deceive, rob, and pilfer the industry.
Tap, you make this statement:
"Second is that before all else integrity and honesty are the biggest factors to us in dealing on bulls. The info us commercial guys get is only as good as the people providing it."
You know what, seedstock producers are in this same position. The information we get on our herd bulls is the exact same info. commercial operators get.
We do our best to know all we can about a bull or female before adding their genetics to our herd. We do our homework by looking at the dam and sire, if at all possible, and try to learn about their pedigree, performance, carcass, and determine if they have the ability to add a positive set of genetics to our herd in terms of do-ability and economics, and still have a nice disposition, etc, while not adding bad feet and udders.
You see we have just as much, if not more, at stake than the commercial producer. Not only does our decision impact our herd, but it impacts our customer's herds too. We do not take our responsibility in this arena lightly!
There are operators who run their outfits with honesty and integrity in all facets of our business. There are those who do not.
We have been burnt by both commercial and seedstock operators who do not operate in this fashion. Yes, there are commercial outfits who do not possess the same character as you do. I know of one in particular who is "banned" from attending several breeders production sales because of his lack of integrity. I know of another who "hung" a fellow breeder for a good chunk of change by not paying for his bulls and/or writing bad checks. Does this mean I should lump all commercial producers in this category, absolutely not.
Tap, I appreciate your goal. In many ways, I wish we could run our outfit like you say is "ideal." Our land-base doesn't afford us this opportunity at this time. In the future, it may.
Ironically, my Mom and Dad are registered Hereford breeders, and would fit your mold. They have not always run their outfit in this fashion, but adding a ranch in the high desert of NW NM to their high mountain Colorado ranch allowed them this opportunity. Our NM country reminds me very much of your outfit...same plants and topography.
I have come to the conclusion this is a no win argument. No one will be correct, no one will be wrong.
Thanks for offering the stimulating conversation. I am sure after giving more thought to was has been said, after I wrote this earlier, I'll ask more questions, or point things out. When I ask, please don't say I'm not being open minded...I am just asking.
I do know one thing, life as a seedstock producer is not as wonderful and glamorous as some make it out to be. At best it is a gratifying life, at it's worst, it is heart breaking and gut wrenching. Without a doubt, all that glitters isn't gold.
Cheers---
TTB :wink:
