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Agman

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Contrary to your statement reader, agman never posted info from a reliable source except "His" contacts. I don't know if they are reliable or not. And neither do you.

He stated that ALL spinal cords were being removed from cattle. That, I'm sure is what his contacts told him but that is not the law. Spinal cords among other questionable CNS components are not SRM's in cattle in cattle under 30 months. Only small intestine and tonsils are. The Canadian website from which I posted said that spinal cords "must" be removed but they are not held to it by law, same as here. The "Final Rule" was ambiguously written to deceive the public as was intended.[/quote]

I wonder if SH is going to call Agman out for "lying"

Respopnse... If you think I am lying provide the proof. Mike went through the effort to make a post per the regulation that the spinal cord is removed from all animals for human consumption. Was that a lie? I stand by my statements. The mere fact that you are always on the outside looking in is your problem, not mine. Have a great day.
 
MRJ said:
Why do you believe we NCBA members need to justify to you any policy decisions we make?



MRJ

Looks like the same old NCBA that has been declining steadily because of their "holier than thou" attitude--We don't need explanations because we are never wrong--Blindly follow us....... :)

Looks like their "WE DEMAND" strong stance was all a smokescreen....

MRJ- If someone came to you with the idea of joining NCBA and asked what their policy was, what would you tell them..."Wait until I call Denver, because we've changed our policy 3 times in the last month..I need to find out what the pulpit readings of the day are?".......
 
Oldtimer said:
reader (the Second) said:
Mike said:
Reader (2nd) :"You, me, Mike, Agman all posted info from reliable sources."

Contrary to your statement reader, agman never posted info from a reliable source except "His" contacts. I don't know if they are reliable or not. And neither do you.

He stated that ALL spinal cords were being removed from cattle. That, I'm sure is what his contacts told him but that is not the law. Spinal cords among other questionable CNS components are not SRM's in cattle in cattle under 30 months. Only small intestine and tonsils are. The Canadian website from which I posted said that spinal cords "must" be removed but they are not held to it by law, same as here. The "Final Rule" was ambiguously written to deceive the public as was intended.

OT...I don't understand Agman. He postures like an expert but it's awfully simple to get access to the current Govt regulations. How come when I asked him numerous times, he can't post an official link to the USDA regulation vis a vis SRMs that shows that central nervous system is removed from UTM??? He better put his money where his mouth is or more of us are going to doubt that he knows what he's talking about

Agman is taken by some on here as an "expert on everything" since he is a beancounter that supports NCBA's positions -- whatever that might be from day to day-- hard to keep track of lately- I agree he is a very knowledgible man on counting beans, but all the beancounting in the world does not make him a BSE expert ..... I've been asking him , ~SH~, MRJ, and all other NCBA members to fill me in on the scientific reasoning that came out of the preconvention change of NCBA's position, but haven't received a reply yet from anyone-- been kind of silent on if this is really a new science outlook or just a way to save losing the last of the membership.......


REsponse...I do not consider my self an expert and certainly not regarding BSE. That said OT, my clients in each category of the beef industry are at the top rung of the ladder in each sector. Most have been clients for better than 20-25 years. I believe that speaks for itself. You would have to ask them about the value of my information.

I believe the most knowledgeable person posting on this forum per the BSE subject is Reader 2nd. I made a clarification regarding the removal of the spinal cord in UTM's and spinal column in OTM's. The information I provided is accurate and a post of the regulation by Mike supporting that process is listed on this forum. I can assure you my sources of information regarding this matter are accurate. They are involed in this process daily. Have great day.
 
I just wish that I could have found the definitive SRM regulations -- current -- on the USDA website easily but I believe you and Mike that the spinal cord is removed from UTM. I'm wondering about the other parts -- eyes, brain, etc. Am I missing the obvious here and the head is now always discarded? I know that I don't see brains for sale anymore and I personally wouldn't eat them although I did in the past. I'm just struck by the oddity of mentioning spinal cord but not brains or eyes.
------------------------------------------------------------------
USDA definition of SRM's

1- "Skull, brain, trigeminal ganglia,eyes,spinal cord and dorsal root ganglia
from cattle 30 months of age or older."
2- "Small intestine and tonsils from cattle of all ages."

"SRM's are required to be removed from the food chain."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
There is NO definition of SRM's for UTM's. Not that I can find anywhere on the USDA, FSIS, APHIS, etc website. See the ambiguity?
 
Mike and reader2,

Have you ever tried calling up a packer? Just get on the phone and talk to them.

A few years ago when M Callicrate was whining and moaning about only having one packer bid on his cattle and the sale barn jockies all repeated it daily on the radio, I had 2 loads of cattle in the feedlot to sell. I looked up the list of packers on the web and started calling. By the time I got done I had all the bids I wanted. The cattle ended up going to a smaller packer for export.

I have asked R-CALFers if they ever talked to a packer and the majority say "hell no", they're the enemy. How's that for communication. If I was a larger packer, I would instruct every cattle procurement employee to NOT buy cattle that originated from an R-CALFer or routed through certain auction barns.

R-CALF, LMA, OCM, WORC, DRA, etc. are the tantrum children that think the world is against them.



.
 
agman said:
Contrary to your statement reader, agman never posted info from a reliable source except "His" contacts. I don't know if they are reliable or not. And neither do you.

He stated that ALL spinal cords were being removed from cattle. That, I'm sure is what his contacts told him but that is not the law. Spinal cords among other questionable CNS components are not SRM's in cattle in cattle under 30 months. Only small intestine and tonsils are. The Canadian website from which I posted said that spinal cords "must" be removed but they are not held to it by law, same as here. The "Final Rule" was ambiguously written to deceive the public as was intended.

I wonder if SH is going to call Agman out for "lying"

Respopnse... If you think I am lying provide the proof. Mike went through the effort to make a post per the regulation that the spinal cord is removed from all animals for human consumption. Was that a lie? I stand by my statements. The mere fact that you are always on the outside looking in is your problem, not mine. Have a great day.[/quote]

Whoa up, old boy. I was poking at SH, not you (althought I believe your post that got this all started was about SRMs, not spinal cords). :wink:
 
I think the misunderstanding here is the "SPECIFIED Risk material is different for different classes of cattle. Much more material falls into that catagory on OTM cattle then on UTM cattle, The Small intestine is removed in both. :cowboy:
 
Mike it looks as though you should have the final word!Some are starting to see through the smoke.
 
Oldtimer, you wrote far more into my comment wondering why you believe we need to justify our policy than you should have. I'm saying the NCBA members do have the right to set policy for our own organization, though that appears contrary to what you believe.

Our membership is increasing in spite of the continued outright lies about NCBA and/or the Beef Checkoff propagandized so dilligently and frequently by some of your cohorts.

You aren't doing so well as a mind reader, and your memory must be going, as you continuosly forget that NCBA is a member driven organization. The leaders, (new ones every year....a novel idea for preventing so much as an appearance of a "dictator-for-life" situation) actually ask the members for direction! I haven't called NCBA about any policy issue since attending the convention. The reason I might call would be that I didn't fully understand something in my policy book. Maybe you don't realize the scope of NCBA issues. I think there were 45 Resolutions to be voted on at the recent convention. There surely must be a few hundred on the annual Policy book. I wouldn't bother to keep that many in my head at all times, even if capable of it. Actually, I have had at least a couple of people ask if they could put my name down as the person who convinced them to join NCBA.

BTW, for whomever asked, the ballots are due in to the independent auditing company by March 21, and I did not hear when the count is to be made and published.

Tommy, I would like to know the context, date, place where you heard Jan Lyons make that statement. Surely you will comply, as you demand others provide meticulous detail in such instances.

OT, the "best available science" is my term. I believe some of the anti-establishment-at-any-cost people have bastardized "sound science" by claiming some pretty far out stuff is "sound science" even though it may not yet have been accepted by the internationally recognized scientific community. Granted, there may come a time when it will be, but until then, I do not want to bet my life on it.

Which reminds me: Many of the R-CALF people and support groups claim the USA has the best and safest food/beef in the world.So......why are you attempting to harm or eliminate the very businesses, especially the packers and others that have built that extremely successful system of food production and international delivery?

MRJ
 
MRJ - I don't mean to butt in here, but. I SAW Jan Lyons make that statement on TV. "We weren't listening"

"Best available science" was canned by Johanns in his introductory speech.
We all commented about how things had turned from "sound science" to "best available science" by the changing of the guards in the USDA.
 
'MAYBE WE WEREN'T LISTENING,'

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Posted by Tommy on Feb-7-05 7:32am from 63.190.0.106


'MAYBE WE WEREN'T LISTENING,' Cattlemen's Official Says


By Chris Clayton

WORLD-HERALD STAFF WRITER

SAN ANTONIO - Jan Lyons, president of the National Cattlemen's Beef Association, was asked point-blank by a California cattleman how she intends to get back about 1,000 members from that state who didn't renew their annual memberships.

Lyons, a Kansas producer, went on for a minute or two about attrition and overall loss of cattle producers nationally and a change in the group's membership pricing.

Then she acknowledged a possible communication problem with members.

"Maybe we weren't listening," Lyons said at a forum attended by several hundred members during the group's national convention here last week. "Maybe we weren't responding to the membership. We're trying to change that. I believe we have put a new face on NCBA."

Trade issues dominated the association's annual convention, attended by more than 6,000 people - one of the biggest turnouts in recent years.

But there was an underlying tone that the association is working to regain its grass-roots appeal as well as members it has lost in recent years, including some to the Montana-based Ranchers-Cattlemen Action Legal Fund, United Stockgrowers of America, or R-CALF.

Lyons said the association is developing a campaign in areas where it is having membership problems to "return investment back to the countryside."

"We know who we are, and we know who we represent," she said.

The NCBA remains the national flagship organization for people in the cattle industry, but as the issue of mad cow disease has evolved into a three-way trade dispute among the United States, Canada and Japan, R-CALF has seized the bullhorn and often dictated the debate.

The United States closed its border to Canadian beef after the discovery there of mad cow disease, or bovine spongiform encephalopathy. Japan closed its border to U.S. beef after a case of BSE was found in Washington state. Cattle trade with Canada is set to resume next month, but U.S. beef is still banned in Japan, which last week reported its first human case of mad cow-related illness.

The border closings have helped drive up cattle prices and given R-CALF an opportunity to recruit new members by advocating protectionist trade policies, while the free-trade supporters in the NCBA are on the defensive.

"I don't think there's any question we have a cultural division with some people out there," said Missouri producer Mike John, president-elect of the NCBA.

Lyons said she frequently hears from people who say they are watching what the NCBA does on a particular issue before they decide whether to renew their memberships.

"Lately, we've heard it's been the Canadian cattle issue," she said.

Terry Stokes, the NCBA's chief executive officer, also noted Nebraska is one of the places where R-CALF has gained a foothold, and the NCBA is in a tug of war for membership.

"Overall, you see a competing vision out there," Stokes said.

When NCBA member Allen Bright of Antioch, Neb., is asked about the group's grass-roots efforts, he pulls out the national convention program and points to the array of marketing, animal health, taxation, environmental, regulatory and issue programs, including topics specifically directed toward young producers.

"The list is endless of those kinds of things NCBA is doing every day in Washington (D.C.) and rural America," Bright said. "It's not just Canada. It's not just Japan. We hear all the talk about R-CALF representing the cattlemen. The business climate is more than Canadian trade."

It's a challenging year for the NCBA's national membership chairman, West Point, Neb., feedlot owner Harry Knobbe, but he sees opportunity.

The membership committee is issuing gift membership coupons so producers can have their friends and neighbors join. Knobbe points out the NCBA was prepared for a potential announcement of a U.S. case of mad cow disease and attacked the issue as soon as it happened.

"Do you want to organize the firemen when the fire starts or before?" Knobbe asked. "We've been the sentinels for all you people waiting for the siren to blow."

The NCBA's continuing struggle is to represent cattlemen nationwide who have different environmental, political and economic interests in various regions of the country and segments of the industry, he said.

Knobbe has been coming to NCBA meetings since the early 1970s and continues to give his time to the organization because he sees other Nebraskans volunteering, too. He makes a point every year of bringing someone new to the convention.

"I wouldn't miss this," Knobbe said. "I would be afraid of what I missed."

Craig Utter of Ainsworth, Neb., said the NCBA represents the broad cattle industry, including people who aren't members. For example, he said, many nonmembers were among about 80 people who attended a Nebraska Cattlemen meeting last month on trade issues.

"Our grass roots in this association goes beyond our members because we actually allow people who aren't members to talk," Utter said. "They can't vote on things, but they can express their opinions."

Utter, who has a cow-calf herd of about 250 animals, has been a member of the NCBA since 1994 and has been a regular at the national convention since the late 1990s. He said he doesn't feel the NCBA's positions are dominated by large producers.

"I've always taken a little bit of offense to that view of NCBA," Utter said. "They are not just representing the big boys. The little guy has a chance to be heard here."
 
I know, sometimes the devil in us just has to come out. Interesting to see MRJ's excuse for this one. Your mistake was that you didn't say you had it on tape and you couldn't find the tape and you were sooooo busy you didn't have time to look for it and your computer is soooo slow. :lol:
 
That's funny! I forgot about those "don't have time" days. By the way, did you see agman "stroking" reader(2nd) this morning? I just about fell out of the chair from laughing! agman is quite an artist.
 
Mike said:
That's funny! I forgot about those "don't have time" days. By the way, did you see agman "stroking" reader(2nd) this morning? I just about fell out of the chair from laughing! agman is quite an artist.

REsponse...I just said the truth Mike. I believe Reader (2nd) is the most knowledgeable posting per BSE. That does not mean I agree with everything that is said. I also said that R-calf was correct when the USDA was in violation of their own rule. That was factual. That does not mean I support R-Calf in any way, shape or form. They were correct on that issue. Eventually the truth will win out and R-calf will go the way of other populist organizations.

Unlike the parrots and followers of R-calf I will give credit where credit is due. It is too bad that so few R-calf supporters have the integrity to do the same. BTW, did the post you made per said subject support my comment or not? Have a great day.
 
agman:"BTW, did the post you made per said subject support my comment or not? Have a great day."

I'm sorry. Which post "I" made are you referring to?
Said subject?
 
reader (the Second) said:
agman said:
Mike said:
That's funny! I forgot about those "don't have time" days. By the way, did you see agman "stroking" reader(2nd) this morning? I just about fell out of the chair from laughing! agman is quite an artist.

REsponse...I just said the truth Mike. I believe Reader (2nd) is the most knowledgeable posting per BSE. That does not mean I agree with everything that is said. I also said that R-calf was correct when the USDA was in violation of their own rule. That was factual. That does not mean I support R-Calf in any way, shape or form. They were correct on that issue. Eventually the truth will win out and R-calf will go the way of other populist organizations.

Unlike the parrots and followers of R-calf I will give credit where credit is due. It is too bad that so few R-calf supporters have the integrity to do the same. BTW, did the post you made per said subject support my comment or not? Have a great day.

I actually thought Agman was genuine -- if sorely misguided -- when he said I was the most knowledgeable posting about BSE. I have the most passion on the subject of TSEs and public health -- for obvious reasons -- and talk to and listen to the most people -- from FDA to USDA to you guys to TSE researchers to public health folks to activist groups. I certainly hope that some of you ranchers are bigger experts on BSE than I am.

I have known Agman to retract when confronted with evidence, so don't be too hard on him. We're all a bit pompous in our own idiosyncratic ways here.

There was nothing derogatory about my "agman" comment. And I too think that you are the closest thing to our "resident" BSE expert. My sense of humor may be warped but I can't help it. And don't be calling me those words like "idiosyncratic"! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
The misunderstanding here is the "SPECIFIED Risk material is different for different classes of cattle.This is a court case by itself and it would take MONTHS let alone the contamition from handling one BSE animal that was detected in a plant kill line.
 
Thanks rancher and Mike for finding where Jan Lyons made the statement " Maybe we weren't listening". I know she is mj's hero. Also they dropped the phrase, North American Beef Industry.

I was at a NCBA meeting Tuesday night and the President elect, Mike John, said they have 26,000 members. That is what they had last year, didn't mj say they were gaining all the time?
 
Tommy said:
Thanks rancher and Mike for finding where Jan Lyons made the statement " Maybe we weren't listening". I know she is mj's hero. Also they dropped the phrase, North American Beef Industry.

I was at a NCBA meeting Tuesday night and the President elect, Mike John, said they have 26,000 members. That is what they had last year, didn't mj say they were gaining all the time?

MRJ might have some 'splaining to do. Bet she don't comment on Jan's statement.
 

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