An Open Offer to the USDA & CFIA

[Anonymous]

If the USDA is really doing this Oldtimer how can R-CALF claim the US has the WORLD SAFEST BEEF???? How can Leo and Bill claim you have firewall the only country to have such stringent firewall to protect consumers from BSE? See this is the problem you can't claim the USDA is only looking out for the Big Packers profits by over looking the safety factors and then claim you have the safest beef in the world and still have credibility.

We would unarguably have the safest beef in the world IF USDA hadn't been so hasty with their border rule change with Canada... US still produces the safest beef- they just need to identify out the Canadian or close the border to imports from higher risk countries like Canada to maintain that...

 

[bse-tester]

Tam wrote:

Sorry but this looks as if you are trying to use the discovery of BSE in N.A. and the fear within the industry to cut corners. Oldtimer posted a article that stated the reseachers that are working on this very test feel a lot of work still need to be done and here you are trying to use our fears to demand the CFIA and the USDA take you up on your offer to use their labs to prove whether or not the test actually works. Cutting corners has cost this industry enough so if you are so sure you have something, go through the proper channels and do it right. The right way would be to prove the test actually can detect bad prions without them having to be ADD to the urine. If the test can be proven and validated THEN take it to those agencies that are in charge of the testing which I doubt are taking information from ranchers.net to heart.

Well, it appears as if I am being slammed by the self-appointed higher authority yet once again - and for what??

She accuses me of fearmongering!!! She accuses me of trying to cut corners! Tam, you should read my posting again before you get on your high donkey and start loading your pop-gun for battle!!! You are on the wrong path again girl!!!

I am not trying to cut corners. We have already been offered a contract with The United States National prion Surveillance Lab in Cleveland to conduct the validation for BSE, CWD, Scrapie and CJD. We are also discussing a co-validation with Adrianno Agguzzi in Switzerland, Dr. John Collinge, in London, UK and are actively seeking two other international prion research labs - one in France and one in Germany - to also come aboard so that we can conduct at least five (5) simultaneous validations. This will allow us to provide an overwhelming amount of data (proof) that our test works!!! The entire process will take approxiamtely 24 months to complete - per disease. We intend to run the validations for each one simultaneously also in order to complete them all within the 24 month program.

We are NOT asking either the CFIA or the USDA to conduct validations - that would be wrong!!! Besides, that is not their mandate!!!

Guess what Tam - I am paying for it all, not you or anyone else!! Further, by offering this test to the CFIA and the USDA will not short cut anything. All it will do is develop an insight as to what the heck the test is capable of doing for them and give them a kick start introduction to it pending validation. It will not give them the carte blanche rubber stamp to say to me that the test is accepted by them. On the contrary, it will only allow them to get an early look at its potential pre-validation.

My offer is a good one. It will allow the governments to make a difference without having to pay for the years of research that it takes to develop a test such as this. It also allows the governments to have a test that has already shown incredible ptotential in the lab trials. It will also allow the cattle industry to have hope that there is a way that we can test the national herd without having to slaughter them.

If all of this is fear-mongering Tam, or some other form of pushing a test for profit as TimH once eluded to, then I guess I am on the wrong path, because all I want to do is help somehow.

I am not the one shouting about the sky falling here Tam. I am trying to help stop it from caving in on us again!!!

The entire world knows it is using a suspect test protocol but they have to use it as that is what the EU authorities sanction. We shall try to change that because it does need to be changed and changed soon. The amount of testing that is going on around the world amounts to a minimum percentage that should be done, only to satisfy the regulatory controls and the lobbiests that say the testing is unnecessary because it would eat into their bottom line!!! There position is alway to say "to hell with the real issues, protect the bottom line!!!!"

Tam, you should consider the impact of what this offer could do for your industry. Hell, it aint costin' you nothin' honey!!!

No real changes to the approved government labs. No cost for the antibody - I am paying that. Higher surveillance for the national herd. More consumer confidence. Higher international market acceptance. Higher gain for the producers. Better pricing for the product.

I see it as a win-win situation - and frankly, I am surprised that you don't.

As one last comment, it is also important Tam to note that back in 2004, I presented the test to the VLA laboratories in England - you know, the ones that we here in Canada send any suspected BSE tissues to for final BSE confirmation, at their labs in Weybridge, UK. They liked the science behind our test so much that they, as sitting members of the European Food Safety Association, (EFSA) presented it to their Annual Conference, September 7th, 2004. In fact, as a result of that presentation, Dr. Koen Van Dyke, the then Chair of the EFSA, suggested that we conduct the validations ourselves with the help of the labs I mentioned above. He also advised that the USDA and the CFIA would only accept a validated and approved test protocol. This we already knew!!

But Tam, you obviously know a hell of a lot more than I do in this matter, sitting up there on your donkey must make you feel like you are in total control and can write your words knowing that they are not true!! Such is the level of the power you weald.

If you think I am being a little bit too hard on you Tam - you earned it!! I am not trying to insult you, I leave that sort of thing to you. All I am saying is that you are wrong to suggest that I am fearmongering or trying to cut corners - simply put, it is impossible and extremely dangerous in my field, to even remotely try to cut corners!!!

Oh well, that is what comes of trying to make a difference I guess. Crap, the bad thing is that it appears that I can't even give it away!!!! Now that really sucks the big one!!!

Fear is something that tends to grow unknowingly around those who fear the night or still believe in the monsters that used to lurk in their childhood closets. Government control is something else that should have been made aware to us as children, for then perhaps, we could have made a difference long ago. (Ron, Circa - Just now!)

 

[don]

ot you latch on to johanns' claims of the safest beef in the world as if it was gospel and then call usda a liar on everything else. the world is arguing american beef safety; that's why they aren't buying it. if johanns and other secretaries of agriculture have screwed up the american beef industry what makes you think they have done such a good job of ensuring safety? this is what i alluded to in a post further back when i said r-calf takes what it can use from usda and trashes the rest. you lose all your credibility with your inconsistencies. you assume the rest of the usa is as stupid as r-calf and that what you say makes sense. so where are the results of the r-calf brilliance?

 

[Anonymous]

Tam- I didn't think of my post as a personal attack- but if thats how you see it -so be it....I was answering your attack on me for posting a simple news article...

Since you, TimH and a few others have not only questioned BSE tester and his test- but have already apparently made up your minds it doesn't work, while all but calling BSE tester a fraud and a charlatan, I was simply inquiring into your medical, laboratory, and legal education, history, and experience that has allowed you to make these decisions :???: Tam, since you have an intimate source- has SSGA or CCA made any inquiries with CFIA to see why they don't want to proceed with further work on this test?

I think Ron has been more than open on the basic workings of the test-- how it was developed- who developed it- the medical and laboratory profiles of those involved in the development- what needs to be done to get it verified- and has went out of his way to answer anyones questions...

In order for me to get a true picture and develop an opinion, I need to know more about his doubters work with BSE and the information they are using to doubt him or the test....

 

[Anonymous]

ot you latch on to johanns' claims of the safest beef in the world as if it was gospel and then call usda a liar on everything else. the world is arguing american beef safety; that's why they aren't buying it. if johanns and other secretaries of agriculture have screwed up the american beef industry what makes you think they have done such a good job of ensuring safety? this is what i alluded to in a post further back when i said r-calf takes what it can use from usda and trashes the rest. you lose all your credibility with your inconsistencies. you assume the rest of the usa is as stupid as r-calf and that what you say makes sense. so where are the results of the r-calf brilliance?

don-So you agree with the world that USDA is incompetent?

 

[don]

i don't know if they're incompetent or crooked. i do know they have bu**ered your exports just as the canadian govt has ours. my point is that r-calf uses usda propaganda when it suits them and trashes usda the rest of the time. flounder's post about how not to find bse is apparently how a good chunk of the world views usda so why does r-calf jump on the safest beef in the world stuff johanns spews when they know it isn't viewed as credible? isn't that a reflection on r-calf's credibility? we could agree on a few things but if you want canadian cattlemen to be sympathetic to your battle against market concentration and abuse why spread out and out lies about the safety of canadian beef?

 

[Anonymous]

Don- You and I agree on one thing- USDA has fumbled and bumbled and kissed rear of the Big Packers so much that their credibility as an oversight, safety, and regulatory agency has been put badly in doubt...

I tho believe- same as R-CALF- that the US beef overall is quite safe- altho could be made safer with the addition of a few more safeguards/ but in order to maintain that safety USDA needs to strengthen the firewalls and safeguards not weaken them...And everyone (USDA, the TSE rule commission, the independent scientists) had said many times over the years that our number 1 safeguard we had in place "was not importing from BSE risk countries"....And I think Canada has a few years to go- and a few more tests to perform, before they can prove they are not a BSE risk country...If we are going to err, we should error on the side of safety...

I also believe that tests like Rons are now and will be for some time important...We, the US and Canada, are not out of the woods yet as some of the industry leaders would like to lead us to believe...

Basing my opinion on my training and work as a Coroner and the high number of unverified Alzheimers type deaths I saw that were increasing- and upon what I've been able to ascertain about the new studies and developments in the BSE science and the possible ties of TSE's to sCJD and Alzheimers, let alone vCJD and its long incubation period which could begin appearing in either country in future years- I still believe the worst stage is ahead for the cattle and beef industries.....

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Don- You and I agree on one thing- USDA has fumbled and bumbled and kissed rear of the Big Packers so much that their credibility as an oversight, safety, and regulatory agency has been put badly in doubt...

I tho believe- same as R-CALF- that the US beef overall is quite safe- altho could be made safer with the addition of a few more safeguards/ but in order to maintain that safety USDA needs to strengthen the firewalls and safeguards not weaken them...And everyone (USDA, the TSE rule commission, the independent scientists) had said many times over the years that our number 1 safeguard we had in place "was not importing from BSE risk countries"....And I think Canada has a few years to go- and a few more tests to perform, before they can prove they are not a BSE risk country...If we are going to err, we should error on the side of safety...

I also believe that tests like Rons are now and will be for some time important...We, the US and Canada, are not out of the woods yet as some of the industry leaders would like to lead us to believe...

Basing my opinion on my training and work as a Coroner and the high number of unverified Alzheimers type deaths I saw that were increasing- and upon what I've been able to ascertain about the new studies and developments in the BSE science and the possible ties of TSE's to sCJD and Alzheimers, let alone vCJD and its long incubation period which could begin appearing in either country in future years- I still believe the worst stage is ahead for the cattle and beef industries.....

Ot as coroner what sort of medical training do you have?

 

[TimH]

Oldtimer wrote-

Since you, TimH and a few others have not only questioned BSE tester and his test- but have already apparently made up your minds it doesn't work, while all but calling BSE tester a fraud and a charlatan, I was simply inquiring into your medical, laboratory, and legal education, history, and experience that has allowed you to make these decisions

Oldtimer, There you go again, somehow reading what I never wrote. Bring the quote where I said 1 word about whether or not the test worked. You can't because I never said anything about it.
I merely point out that someone in the business of selling tests obviously has a fanancial interest in selling as many tests as possible, and that somehow gets twisted into being anti-business, anti-profit and "all but calling BSE tester a fraud and a charlatan".
Amazing!!!! You should re-read your Mark Racicot quote Oldtimer. Several times, until you understand it fully. :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

Don- You and I agree on one thing- USDA has fumbled and bumbled and kissed rear of the Big Packers so much that their credibility as an oversight, safety, and regulatory agency has been put badly in doubt...

I tho believe- same as R-CALF- that the US beef overall is quite safe- altho could be made safer with the addition of a few more safeguards/ but in order to maintain that safety USDA needs to strengthen the firewalls and safeguards not weaken them...And everyone (USDA, the TSE rule commission, the independent scientists) had said many times over the years that our number 1 safeguard we had in place "was not importing from BSE risk countries"....And I think Canada has a few years to go- and a few more tests to perform, before they can prove they are not a BSE risk country...If we are going to err, we should error on the side of safety...

I also believe that tests like Rons are now and will be for some time important...We, the US and Canada, are not out of the woods yet as some of the industry leaders would like to lead us to believe...

Basing my opinion on my training and work as a Coroner and the high number of unverified Alzheimers type deaths I saw that were increasing- and upon what I've been able to ascertain about the new studies and developments in the BSE science and the possible ties of TSE's to sCJD and Alzheimers, let alone vCJD and its long incubation period which could begin appearing in either country in future years- I still believe the worst stage is ahead for the cattle and beef industries.....

Ot as coroner what sort of medical training do you have?

Coroner/Coroner Investigator training- which is a specialized training which qualified you to testify as an expert to that facet...Enough that you were given the responsibility to make the decision or cause legal inquiry as to what the cause and manner of death was...The posts and medical interpretations of such, which were many times made on the evidence and facts present by the Investigator, were left to the Medical Examiners which were forensic Patholigists...

I began in 1971 and retired in 1999 and during that time was involved with the investigation of thousands of deaths-- and one of the things I saw was a huge rise in the number of deaths in patients that had been clinically diagnosed as either senilism, dementia, or Alzheimers...Very, very few of these were ever verified by post mortem examination..

The point I'm trying to stress is that there was a huge increase in these type diseases- which are not now verifiable by a Physician while the person is alive- but while diagnosed as such by a physician- are seldom verified upon death as the Coroner relies on the M.D.'s diagnosis...Definitely raises a question in my mind-- is it because of the more geriatric population of the community- or will these doctors find other ties as they now indicate they believe are there...
Very few of these cases were ever posted or verified- which I think with the changing science will now change....

I don't think the industry can start breathing a sigh of relief yet...All it will take is one verified tie of Alzheimers to BSE or vCJD deaths appearing in N.A. to get the population in an uproar....The US citizen (and I suspect the Canadian citizen) is very complacent and trusting with their government regulatory agencies and put blind trust in them-- until they are proven wrong- at which time they turn to their Legislature for protection- and legislators then usually overreact.....

I just believe we need to do all the proactive moves we can to help ward this off...

 

[Anonymous]

Oldtimer wrote-

Since you, TimH and a few others have not only questioned BSE tester and his test- but have already apparently made up your minds it doesn't work, while all but calling BSE tester a fraud and a charlatan, I was simply inquiring into your medical, laboratory, and legal education, history, and experience that has allowed you to make these decisions

Oldtimer, There you go again, somehow reading what I never wrote. Bring the quote where I said 1 word about whether or not the test worked. You can't because I never said anything about it.
I merely point out that someone in the business of selling tests obviously has a fanancial interest in selling as many tests as possible, and that somehow gets twisted into being anti-business, anti-profit and "all but calling BSE tester a fraud and a charlatan".
Amazing!!!! You should re-read your Mark Racicot quote Oldtimer. Several times, until you understand it fully. :roll:

Your and Tams remarks did not lead me to believe you were very positive about either the test or the promoter :???: Then you do believe the test could very well work if verified?

 

[Tam]

Oldtimer wrote-

Since you, TimH and a few others have not only questioned BSE tester and his test- but have already apparently made up your minds it doesn't work, while all but calling BSE tester a fraud and a charlatan, I was simply inquiring into your medical, laboratory, and legal education, history, and experience that has allowed you to make these decisions

Oldtimer, There you go again, somehow reading what I never wrote. Bring the quote where I said 1 word about whether or not the test worked. You can't because I never said anything about it.
I merely point out that someone in the business of selling tests obviously has a fanancial interest in selling as many tests as possible, and that somehow gets twisted into being anti-business, anti-profit and "all but calling BSE tester a fraud and a charlatan".
Amazing!!!! You should re-read your Mark Racicot quote Oldtimer. Several times, until you understand it fully. :roll:

Your and Tams remarks did not lead me to believe you were very positive about either the test or the promoter :???: Then you do believe the test could very well work if verified?

Gee Oldtimer it was a post put on ranchers by no other than you that put questions into my mind of whether or not the test worked. Go back an read the post again the researchers that are working on it say, "it needs a lot of work still" . If the bad prions aren't their naturally, not added to but there naturally, the test might not work. Since they have no answer to the question of whether or not they are there naturally how can you or Ron say it for sure works? If Ron can VERIFY that it does work then will be the time to sell it . Up until he verifies it we have to concentrate on the tests that have been verified to work and the World expects us to use.

 

[Mike]

If the bad prions aren't their naturally, not added to but there naturally, the test might not work.

Tam you know so little about science, (same as me) how could you even have a question about a man's endeavor?

One would think that we would be honored to have someone in the field here to discuss BSE with.

I can "GUARANTEE" you that Ron knows more about testing than you or I.

And YOU'RE wondering if the test works?

 

[Sandhusker]

Unbelieveable! The man offers to share his cake with you & you stand there and p!ss all over it! Were you guys from New Orleans at one time?
:roll: :roll: :roll: :?

What you're witnessing is the common sense of a few individuals and lack of common sense of a few. Some folks just thrive on negetivity.

 

[bse-tester]

Tam Wrote:

Gee Oldtimer it was a post put on ranchers by no other than you that put questions into my mind of whether or not the test worked. Go back an read the post again the researchers that are working on it say, "it needs a lot of work still" .

This one really is amazing Tam:

If the bad prions aren't their naturally, not added to but there naturally, the test might not work.

First you say "If the bad prions aren't there naturally?" Then you follow that with "...not added to but there naturally, the test might not work!"

What in heck do you mean when in one line you say if they aren't there, then in the next associated line you say they are there naturally?" Which is it Tam??? Are you saying they are there and the test will not work, or are you saying if they are not there then the test will not work?" Or, are you saying that if they there and not added but there naturally but not added then the test may not work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????

One thing you really need to get straight in your mind Tam is that it is only in the lab that we added the PrPsc (the dreaded bad prions) in order to see if the test worked and whether or not the antibody also worked. It did!! Now, since we know that urine from cattle and humans, deer and Elk, contains PrP, the good prion, it stands to reason that we should be able to detect the presence of the PrPsc - the bad prion.

We did this already in a blind study of 20 CJD patients and we hit 19 out of the 20 with a positive identification of PrPsc. Number 20 was identified at a different KDa marker and it turned out to be a urine sample taken from a person suffering from Alzheimer's Disease. A most exciting discovery on our part!!

Tam, you are the one who should read it again and remember that the statement was given to a reporter who, like most people when they write a story, do not have the room to put the entire conversation in, plus they will edit it at the expense of how it was originally related to them. Knowing Dr. Ayuna Dagdanova as well as I do, I can honestly state that what she meant by the term "there is still a lot of work to do,? simply means that we are going to spend the next two years validating it. The PrPsc is absolutely in the urine, but we cannot go out into the scientific world and make that claim until we have all of our validation data to back us up. Also, we are not about to release all of our lab notes to anyone simply to show that we have indeed identified PrPsc in urine. That is why we published the Paper in the online Journal of Experimentsal Biology and Medicine, in May of 2005. We will do all of that when we have our mountain of data to back us up in the yes of the authorities in Europe!!

Tam also wrote:

Oldtimer, There you go again, somehow reading what I never wrote. Bring the quote where I said 1 word about whether or not the test worked. You can't because I never said anything about it.
I merely point out that someone in the business of selling tests obviously has a fanancial interest in selling as many tests as possible, and that somehow gets twisted into being anti-business, anti-profit and "all but calling BSE tester a fraud and a charlatan".

Tam, you are so right about me having a financial interest in this venture -to the tune of at least US$250,000.00 of the two million that Biotec Global has put in already. That gives me the right to want to bring this to market as fast as possible. But, having said that, I again refer to my previous statements as to what we intend to do with the profits. I am not in this to get rich and live on the beach with all the girls and more rum than even I can drink. I am in this to make a difference where the governments have failed to do so. And remember, they are supoosed to have your best interests front and center and yet they continuously seem to forget that fact.

Your comments about me having a financial interest do in fact, read like that is all I am in this for and yet you write it and when it is pointed out to you that that is the way it reads, you try to make it read otherwise. Accuse me of anything you want, because the end result will speak for itself in 24 months or less. Then, if I fail to achieve my goals, you can throw out your inuendos all you want, until then, try to play nice ok Tam. I am only trying to help and yet you make me out to be some kind of money grabber and yes Tam, that is exactly how it reads. Oldtimer is not alone in his interpretation of your words.

 

[bse-tester]

Oldtime wrote:

I began in 1971 and retired in 1999 and during that time was involved with the investigation of thousands of deaths-- and one of the things I saw was a huge rise in the number of deaths in patients that had been clinically diagnosed as either senilism, dementia, or Alzheimers...Very, very few of these were ever verified by post mortem examination..

The point I'm trying to stress is that there was a huge increase in these type diseases- which are not now verifiable by a Physician while the person is alive- but while diagnosed as such by a physician- are seldom verified upon death as the Coroner relies on the M.D.'s diagnosis...Definitely raises a question in my mind-- is it because of the more geriatric population of the community- or will these doctors find other ties as they now indicate they believe are there...
Very few of these cases were ever posted or verified- which I think with the changing science will now change....

I don't think the industry can start breathing a sigh of relief yet...All it will take is one verified tie of Alzheimers to BSE or vCJD deaths appearing in N.A. to get the population in an uproar....The US citizen (and I suspect the Canadian citizen) is very complacent and trusting with their government regulatory agencies and put blind trust in them-- until they are proven wrong- at which time they turn to their Legislature for protection- and legislators then usually overreact.....

I just believe we need to do all the proactive moves we can to help ward this off...

Wouldn't it be nice to simply go to your local physician or Medicenter and pee into a bottle and get a test done for prion disease?? What a great thought to have an early and correct diagnosis and not suffer from having a misdiagnosis?

 

[Sandhusker]

i don't know if they're incompetent or crooked. i do know they have bu**ered your exports just as the canadian govt has ours. my point is that r-calf uses usda propaganda when it suits them and trashes usda the rest of the time. flounder's post about how not to find bse is apparently how a good chunk of the world views usda so why does r-calf jump on the safest beef in the world stuff johanns spews when they know it isn't viewed as credible? isn't that a reflection on r-calf's credibility? we could agree on a few things but if you want canadian cattlemen to be sympathetic to your battle against market concentration and abuse why spread out and out lies about the safety of canadian beef?

Don, it seems you've been getting your information on what R-CALF says from Tam. :lol: You need a better source, to say the least!

You condemn R-CALF and say they use the USDA when they want to, but what about your fellow Canadians who heap snide comments on the USDA about their testing, but yet applaud them when they try to open the border? We're to believe the USDA isn't capable of running a competent show regarding our BSE, but they know what they're doing regarding yours? Come on, Don. Isn't that a reflection of Canadian's credibilty as well?

 

[TimH]

Oldtimer wrote-

Since you, TimH and a few others have not only questioned BSE tester and his test- but have already apparently made up your minds it doesn't work, while all but calling BSE tester a fraud and a charlatan, I was simply inquiring into your medical, laboratory, and legal education, history, and experience that has allowed you to make these decisions

Oldtimer, There you go again, somehow reading what I never wrote. Bring the quote where I said 1 word about whether or not the test worked. You can't because I never said anything about it.
I merely point out that someone in the business of selling tests obviously has a fanancial interest in selling as many tests as possible, and that somehow gets twisted into being anti-business, anti-profit and "all but calling BSE tester a fraud and a charlatan".
Amazing!!!! You should re-read your Mark Racicot quote Oldtimer. Several times, until you understand it fully. :roll:

Your and Tams remarks did not lead me to believe you were very positive about either the test or the promoter :???: Then you do believe the test could very well work if verified?

I have no reason to believe the test does not or could not work. That is why I NEVER SAID ONE WORD ABOUT IT!!!
I realize that these 100 degree days tend to make some people a little slow on the uptake so here, once again, is my point........
Some of the biggest proponents of 100% BSE testing are the people that are selling tests. Draw your own conclusions.
Never said they don't have a right to make a profit.
Never even suggested that the test doesn't work.
Never called anyone a fraud.
Don't care what they do with any profits.

I said something like this in another one of these threads, " I'm not disputing that there is some value in a live animal BSE test".
Guess you folks skimmed over that part.

The problem I have with test kit salesmen is this, which I have already stated in these threads, in order to create demand for their tests, they see nothing wrong with implying that MY product is unsafe unless it is tested with their product.
I'm pretty sure that I have the same right as bse-testerRon, or anyone else, to defend and promote my product(cattle/beef).........or am I missing something?

 

[Econ101]

Tim, if this were privatized, you would have the choice of having your beef tested or not.

Freedom is about choices, not just some war in the middle east.

 

[Anonymous]

bse - tester,

Why would you make your testing offer to USDA at "ranchers.net" instead of directly to USDA????

If you don't even have the common sense to approach USDA directly with your proposal as opposed to gathering a support group of USDA critics at this website, how can anyone put much stock in any of your motives?

If you want to make a proposal to USDA, i'd suggest you make it to USDA instead of a bunch of USDA critics at a ranchers web site.

You need to justify your urine test to the agency taxed with food safety responsibility in the US. I would love to hear their response to that request. Your bias is selling your test. Their bias is food safety. I'm sure their response would be interesting to say the least.



~SH~