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Bundy Ranch

farmguy said:
For Pete's sake stop name calling and answer a simple question. I have had no answer to a simple question. Why does he state he owns the land? Many years ago I found out that if you can't answer the question. Attack the person who asks the question. Next take your toys and go home or in this case stop posting. We live in another state and have no BLM leases or similar. So how one considers land theirs if they rent the land I do not understand period. We do own rental property and the idea of renting property and then claiming ownership seems unbelievable as well as selling your lease to another. Also while on a roll here the rental rate for land has gone up 30 to 40 fold over the last decades but the AUM rates have remained the same. I do not understand. So call me what you will but answer the question. Thanks

AUMs rate on private ground have absolutely NOTHING to do with AUM FEES on a grazing permit. Read my post! It is two COMPLETELY different deals and I get excited when folks think they are the same thing. I answered your question I thought.

Bundy has his own logic with this mess and while I sympathize with him I don't agree. I merely tried to explain the history that got us to this point. :?
 
Ho55 said:
All my family is down here today a horse back to get his cows back. They (BLM) have been destroying all his water developments. That he has the water rights on. This could come to a head today.


I salute you and your family today, Ho55.

What a mess. Baby calves scattered, 130 cows killed, 2 bulls shot.
 
You did an excellent job explaining public land grazing in the west LH. For folks living where water is not only more plentiful but sometimes a nuisance it is hard to understand just how important the doctrines around water rights are.
 
DejaVu said:
Ho55 said:
All my family is down here today a horse back to get his cows back. They (BLM) have been destroying all his water developments. That he has the water rights on. This could come to a head today.


I salute you and your family today, Ho55.

What a mess. Baby calves scattered, 130 cows killed, 2 bulls shot.

But he lost a lawsuit so all that in just collateral damage! :mad: :mad: :mad: What a crock!
 
Oh absolutely, Leanin' H. Thing is, if he'd paid his dues, would this situation have still occurred? Since, supposedly Uncle Harry wants the land for a Chinese solar company or water for Vegas or whatever. You can bet your sweet bippy this ain't over.
 
Tam said:
kolanuraven said:
Tam said:
The BLM are pulling out and leaving due to the safety of the public. Now let's see what Bundy will do for the safety of the public

Will he peacefully remove his cattle as ordered by the courts?
Will he pay the back fees of a million dollars the government says he owes as I doubt any court is going to take his claim of him not recognizing the BLM as the authority in charge of the land as a defense as it seems two courts have alright ruled against his defense strategy?
Or will he and his family continue to defy the law and not pay their grazing fees provoking yet another armed showdown with the Federal government?

And before you all jump all over me I don't agree with the way the government handled the whole mess or the Wyoming family EPA mess or the California Smelt mess and I do not have an agenda like others have been accused of but if you stopped paying your lease fees to a private owner how long do you think you would be allowed to graze your herds on the his land? If you were to go to court and claim you did not recognize him to be the owner of the land as your family has been grazing the land for years before the guy bought/ inhereited it, do you think that would get you out of your obligations to pay your back fees or have to get out so the land owner could do as he pleased with his land?

AGAIN I don't agree with how the BLM handled it but I might have had a bit more sympathy for Bundy if he had been paying his fees and not claiming he did not recognize the BLM's authority. I don't feel the BLM was the only ones handling the mess wrong, as I see it Bundy used the hate for this publicly over reaching government to push his defiance to the court orders against him and won for now!!!


Once again I agree with you Tam. Everyone here got a bit overwrought and the drama was made worse as time went on.

He should'a been paying his bills.... I gotta pay mine....you gotta pay yours!! He's no better than any rancher in any other place.



This really sets a bad precedence where mobs can bully and get their way. Not good. We all have gov't in place for a reason and they are no always wrong or bad.

I read he told the Times a year ago, he follows all State laws but no Federal laws. With that attitude I'm surprised he has not been found guilty of more than just trespassing on federal lands and is not in prison verse just having his cattle seized for back grazing fees. With 900 cows on land he is not paying for, I'm guessing he is making some profit which would be subject to federal income taxes. If he fired the FEDERAL BLM as not to pay grazing fees, has he also fired the FEDERAL IRS as not to pay income taxes? :?

To those that support his story---- Again No HIDDEN AGENDA but just wondering, he claims his family has owned the land for over a hundred years but he said himself, he stopped paying the BLM grazing fees/ fired the BLM only 20 years ago. If he truly believe the land was his families why did he ever agree to pay for permits and grazing fees to the Federal Government?

You might say his story has a few holes in it that need to be explained before people blindly support it and risk losing their lives over it just because he is a rancher fighting a government agency!!!!!

I agree Tam... :shock:
Since it was a windy cold miserable day- I spent the day in town today visiting with hundreds of folks - gunshow and walleye tourney show- and while there were a few of the "anti all government folks"-- the attitude of the majority- while not minding to see the government taken down a notch- were not very sympathetic to Bundy... More often than not you heard "I wonder if they'll let me go 20 years without paying my fees?" Or "I wonder how long I can keep my allotment if I tell them I don't believe in them?"... It was almost a joke to some... Many of these local folks are used to working with the BLM on AUM allotments ( which change with the range land/water/rainfall conditions)- and while I wouldn't call it a lovey dovey relationship- its one they've come to realize they have to do to operate the way they are- and most get along fairly well... I was in the other day changing one allotment from yearlings to cow/calf- and I couldn't have been treated nicer by the local BLM folks... Only heard one guy spout revolution and anarchy talk at the gunshow and he claimed he was part of an Arizona militia..
And we are in a county with a large amount of government land...





But you can see where most the public land is- and where most the population is...
This public land issue will get nothing but hotter and hotter in the years to come- and if the attitude I see on some of the Ag websites by many ag folks east of the Mississippi- and on the hunting and recreation sites is any indicator of the feelings of those groups- they are not pro rancher/grazing leases... Some see it as public land to be used by all - some farmer/ranchers see the leases as government subsidies- and others believe the federal land should all be sold to the highest bidder to pay off our national debt (which is a resolution I fear as locally we are seeing the enviro/greeny weeny/bunny hugger folks having more access to funds to buy these allotments than most ranchers/current lessees have)...
 
"But you can see where most the public land is- and where most the population is...
This public land issue will get nothing but hotter and hotter in the years to come- and if the attitude I see on some of the Ag websites by many ag folks east of the Mississippi- and on the hunting and recreation sites is any indicator of the feelings of those groups- they are not pro rancher/grazing leases... Some see it as public land to be used by all - some farmer/ranchers see the leases as government subsidies- and others believe the federal land should all be sold to the highest bidder to pay off our national debt (which is a resolution I fear as locally we are seeing the enviro/greeny weeny/bunny hugger folks having more access to funds to buy these allotments than most ranchers/current lessees have)..."

Ok OT nails some pretty important points here. Our deeded land grain farming friends (I live among the grain farmers as well as the leaseholders) are not aware of the likelihood of our governments taking control of our deeded land when they are done decimating the leaseholders. Bundy not withstanding there are all sorts of well meaning environmental do gooders that don't understand stewardship. (many that do as well) Species of interest will eventually cause their encroachment onto more secure land which some thought was untouchable. Take a look at the stack of caveats that are attached to your land titles if you don't think it is already happening. If we let our government have free reign to remove at will security of tenure then the things we hold securely will not be far behind.

Also remember our governments and industry need a social licence to operate. Our oil industry for instance is being vilified for extraction methods and footprint and a nice tract of turtle or sage grouse range offers a psychological offset or social licence for them and our government to showcase our happy land and air policies.

OT is also not wrong as far as land sales go. Oil exec, movie stars and media moguls have the ability to out bit most of us rancher types. My ranch borders four oil company CEO's who simple were able to outbid us locals when the land came for sale.
 
mrj said:
Unless I missed something in another post, it is impossible to understand who "the son...." mentioned in the post by W.E. is. That information is crucial to knowing what probably is the REAL reason for the determination to remove the Bundy family cattle, and the family itself from the land.

Harry Reid is father of "the son", and that son is involved in some very big financial deals involving solar companies developing the land in question. For profit, no less! "Profit" seems to be such a nasty word among many liberals, it is amazing a Democrat, liberal politician would have any family member involved in this oh so messy situation!

mrj

Yes it is important to know just who is Harry Reid's Son. Rory Reid and here is his Profile.

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/person.asp?personId=1109276&privcapId=2404040

The land grab for Solar is a smoke screen! The land for the Solar Project is near Laughlin and that is south of the Gold Butte and Bunkerville . In the profile you will find the Southern Nevada Water Authority. This is the reason for the entire situation, Las Vegas cannot expand without water, And The Bundy's have Extensive water rights North Of Las Vegas. The water has become more valuable than oil. And the water can be sold again and again to the city of Vegas. If Bundy is ran off his grazing his land becomes worthless. And his water rights will be lost if does not use them" State Law" Therefore The Southern Nevada Water Authority will pick them up for pennies on the dollar, and people will become RICH with development and more water to sale. Again Hage V USA was all about Wayne Hages water. As the Pine Creek Ranch Has extensive water rights at a higher elevation than Los Angles or Las Vegas, And the can cheaply run it down hill. There are no water rights left in Clark county, They cannot drill well's or transfer water rights from another basin, but they can pipeline it. And that is the entire battle. Cliven Bundy is no where as DUMB as People would like to think. he has refused to let them STEAL his water. If he gave in 1993 he would have Lost his water rights and not received a penny for them.... Harry and his son have closed there mouths and are content with the theory that it is about a solar field. Solar energy is not feasible at this time, And NV Energy knows that and that is why they didn't buy the power, as Solar and Wind are difficult to enter into the grid due to the erratic production. But when the cost of power is tripled they become feasible, Therefore the condemnation of COAL fire Plants By Harry Reid.. It's All about the WATER and yours is next.
 
http://www.westernjournalism.com/breaking-federal-swat-team-backs-armed-standoff-militia-will-return-cattle/
 
Wow maybe I should rethink my stand I have both Kola and Oldtimer agreeing with me in one day. :wink:

That said, I do not want anyone to get the wrong idea I believe the BLM made a bone headed move trying to seize Bundy's cattle with armed guards and snipers there were much better ways to handle this issue, but were Bundys any better when they refused to pay their fees for 20 years, that they must of known they needed to pay as they offered to pay them to the County, then they used the national media, twitter and facebook to call in support for their side. They had to know by doing it they were risking government hating extremists were going to be in the mix that showed up for their scheduled protest. :roll:

The family tried to tell everyone to leave their guns in their vehicles as not to provoke violence, but what did they really think was going to happen in a country that is also fighting the Over reaching Federal government on GUN CONTROL. They had guys showing their support for the right to bear arms at PEACEFUL Tea Party rallies did they really believe they were not going to have guns of all kinds showing up at this protest? :roll:

BTW if Bundy wanted the guns left in peoples vehicles why was he photographed walking with a group of militants with guns? Bundy proclaimed he would do anything to protect his herd so was it a long shot that those that showed up thought he meant an ARMED PROTEST. Then you have him announcing he was giving the BLM a half hour and if they did not release the cattle once they agreed to back down, he was going in to get them. That sounds pretty violent provoking actions considering those he was leading were armed. :roll:

I would stand strongly behind any law abiding rancher but law abiding ranchers do not tell the media he follows State laws but NOT FEDERAL when he is using Federally controlled land to make a living.
 
Tam said:
Wow maybe I should rethink my stand I have both Kola and Oldtimer agreeing with me in one day. :wink:

That said, I do not want anyone to get the wrong idea I believe the BLM made a bone headed move trying to seize Bundy's cattle with armed guards and snipers there were much better ways to handle this issue, but were Bundys any better when they refused to pay their fees for 20 years, that they must of known they needed to pay as they offered to pay them to the County, then they used the national media, twitter and facebook to call in support for their side. They had to know by doing it they were risking government hating extremists were going to be in the mix that showed up for their scheduled protest. :roll:

The family tried to tell everyone to leave their guns in their vehicles as not to provoke violence, but what did they really think was going to happen in a country that is also fighting the Over reaching Federal government on GUN CONTROL. They had guys showing their support for the right to bear arms at PEACEFUL Tea Party rallies did they really believe they were not going to have guns of all kinds showing up at this protest? :roll:

BTW if Bundy wanted the guns left in peoples vehicles why was he photographed walking with a group of militants with guns? Bundy proclaimed he would do anything to protect his herd so was it a long shot that those that showed up thought he meant an ARMED PROTEST. Then you have him announcing he was giving the BLM a half hour and if they did not release the cattle once they agreed to back down, he was going in to get them. That sounds pretty violent provoking actions considering those he was leading were armed. :roll:

I would stand strongly behind any law abiding rancher but law abiding ranchers do not tell the media he follows State laws but NOT FEDERAL when he is using Federally controlled land to make a living.

You don't understand him not paying fees to buy the rope to hang himself? :? Read these posts again Tam. It was a no win situation. Play by the rules which the BLM kept changing to suit them or push all of his chips in the middle and call all in! From 52 ranches to 1! From generations of ranching to extinction! What other choice did he have? Those other 51 ranchers paid their fees and yet Cliven Bundy is still ranching and they are gone. You push a guy onto the edge of a ledge you don't think he can push back some? :? Ho55 pays his fees too and was down there supporting the Bundys. That says a lot more to me than anything written here.
 
About 5 yrs ago, we were gonna stake some claims in green river Utah, moab, Utah, uravan colo , etc area.

We used the best helicopter pilot either of us had ever seen==Ted McBride, outa Elko. A 206 (jet ranger) belonging to El Aero was our ride, by far the cheapest most efficient way to stake rough country.

We drove to Elko and flew with Ted from there. Landed in Ely for gas. And here sets down the fanciest bird you could ever want. The pilot climbs out and he's got all the bells and whistles. Crash helmet, coveralls with pockets all over and clipboard on the knee. Certified aviators glasses. Probably endorsements on his underwear. And this fancy aircraft belongs to "Los Angeles Sewer and Water dept"---it says so all over it.

I ask Ted
'what on earth is that goon doing here?!"

He said they've been flying around there for a couple of yrs, evidently think there's an aquifier they can tap and pipe the water to L.A.
 
jodywy said:
good article to sum it up
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-12/why-standoff-bundy-ranch-very-big-deal
Kind of an executive summary of the introduction but a long ways from summing up any kind of conclusion.

Water
Influence
Property rights
Freedom
Justice
Priorities
Perception and reality
Truth
Lies

What a web we weave when we set out to deceive.
 
leanin' H said:
You don't understand him not paying fees to buy the rope to hang himself? :? Read these posts again Tam. It was a no win situation. Play by the rules which the BLM kept changing to suit them or push all of his chips in the middle and call all in! From 52 ranches to 1! From generations of ranching to extinction! What other choice did he have? Those other 51 ranchers paid their fees and yet Cliven Bundy is still ranching and they are gone. You push a guy onto the edge of a ledge you don't think he can push back some? :? Ho55 pays his fees too and was down there supporting the Bundys. That says a lot more to me than anything written here.

Breitbart.com is not exactly a government supporting website and this is their article of what lead up to the standoff.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/04/12/The-Saga-of-Bundy-Ranch

BUNKERVILLE, NEVADA—The Bundy Ranch roundup has understandably stirred thin-stretched emotions as the federal government seizes cattle belonging to the Bundy family. The family settled in the late 1800's and has ranched in the area since. The federal government allowed Nevada ranchers to graze their cattle on federal tracts of land adjacent to their private properties for generations. The federal government later created the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) to administer and "protect" the vast swaths of federal land—including the land the Bundy family's livelihood was—and still is—dependent upon. The BLM began restricting ranchers' usage of federal lands to protect various species, and the BLM decided to restrict the Bundy family's usage of the federal land they historically grazed. The federal government told the Bundy family that a tortoise existed on the land and therefore the land's usage for cattle would have to decrease—thus creating a scenario where the Bundy family could make fewer resources. A 20-year legal battle ensued.

There exist a number of elements to the story that inject shades of grey into the dominant media narrative. Perhaps hundreds of Bundy supporters have already shown up to the ranch area to "protect" the family and their land—which is federal land—but federal land such usage was promised to the family in the government's efforts to get people to settle the West after Mexico ceded the land to the U.S. Court documents—discussed later in this article—reveal that the Bundy family decided at some point that the federal government was illegitimate and that they no longer had to give heed to the federal courts. The Bundy family patriarch has openly stated his willingness to use force against federal agents if they take his cattle off of the federal lands; the federal agents stand ready to use force against the family or their supporters if they interfere with the cattle removal. Both sides are armed, both sides are frustrated, and the rhetoric and hyperbole surrounding the entire matter has left many onlookers from around the world confused as to what is actually happening.

In the immediate aftermath of the infamous cattle roundup, Cliven Bundy granted a number of high profile media interviews continuing to deny—to the point of absolutely ignoring family history—what the federal courts have twice told him.

"I believe this is a sovereign state of Nevada," Bundy recently told a radio reporter. "…I abide by all of Nevada state laws. But, I don't recognize the United States Government as even existing."


Host: "So essentially you have a deal already with Nevada and the Bureau of Land Management is essentially trying to revoke or renege that deal?"

Cliven Bundy: "Yeah, it gets back to the ownership of this. Who owns this land? Does the sovereign State of Nevada own this land within their borders? Or does the United States own this land with their borders? If United States owns this land then I guess I'm wrong. But what if this is a sovereign State of Nevada and Clark County, Nevada owns this land? The People of Clark County, Nevada owns this land." (Emphasis added)

The answers to Mr. Bundy's questions have been given—twice.

Perhaps the most unfortunate aspect of this episode--aside from the headline-grabbing details and viral video content—is that it could have served as a strong case study for 21st Century review of the necessity for mass federal land ownership being utilized for private purposes. Between federal budget constraints, political "land grabs" and increasing enforcement costs, perhaps it is time to discuss how the U.S. can offload land tracts to parties in demand through the free market. However, those discussions are difficult to initiate when one does not recognize the sovereignty of their presumed adversary.

Given the fact that this cattle impound took 20 years, two federal lawsuits with appeals and a number of administrative threats before actually occurring—the federal government's record of enforcement deserves a closer look as well.

The Bundy family can in fact claim to have enjoyed generations of grazing rights on federal land—with an arrangement originating in the 1870s. Adjacent to their personal property, the family was allowed to utilize what was known as the Bunkerville Allotment (outlined in red).

The Bundy family's battle with the federal government--now playing out in international news coverage—began in 1993 with the listing of a native tortoise incorporated under the Endangered Species Act. As a result, the U.S. Department of Interior's Bureau of Land Management (BLM) informed grazing permit holders like Bundy that cattle counts would need to be reduced to 150 head. That same year, the Bundy permit was eligible for renewal but was not executed. The permit was later revoked in 1994 by the BLM for nonpayment on the renewal, according to federal court records.

Claiming that the Bundy family continued to graze livestock on their old Bunkerville Allotment without permit, the BLM sought an injunction in federal court to correct the "trespass" in 1998. The court ordered the Bundy family remove all non-permitted livestock by November 30, 1998 or face fines of $200 per head, per day. The family appealed to the 9th Circuit Court—only to be denied in May 1999.

Throughout the period of 2000 to 2011--spanning both Bush and Obama Administrations--the BLM performed a series of investigations with a variety of reconnaissance tactics to track the alleged trespass of cattle owned by the Bundy family. According to court records, federal agents noted increasing herd sizes on the land formerly allotted and adjacent tracts which were never permitted to private parties. Investigators noted that "more than half" of the cattle did not bear any brand but were confirmed to be the property of Bundy "in correspondence," according to filings.

Federal bureaucrats took great interest in the increased grazing on a tract known as the "New Trespass Lands" adjacent to the old lease once held. Further, Bundy brands were spotted in the neighboring Lake Mead recreational area.

In June 2011, BLM sent a fresh cease and desist order with a renewed threat to impound stray cattle in July 2011. Later in November, the National Park Service (NPS) sent a separate letter regarding alleged trespass on the two new tracts with a 45 day impound threat. In January 2012, the Bundy family told NPS they would work to round up stray cattle ahead of the deadline.

According to court records, the BLM claimed to have surveyed 600 head of cattle on the New Trespass Lands (typically described as a nature preserve by the DOJ) in February 2012. A month later, the figure was officially revised upward to 790, accounting for "recently born" calves.

In April 2012, court records indicate that a final administrative effort was made on the part of the BLM to resolve the alleged trespass on the tracts—including the federal lands traditionally used by the Bundy family and additional federal lands the Bundy family began using without permission on or around 2000. According to testimony, federal agents attempted to broker a deal involving the Clark County Sherriff that would allow cattle to be wrangled and transported to a sales market of the Bundy family's choosing and allow the family to keep all proceeds. Court filings referenced Cliven Bundy's assertion that any such action to round up cattle could lead to a "range war."

Claiming to have exhausted all options, the U.S. Government filed a new civil lawsuit against the family for specific alleged trespass on the New Trespass Lands and the Lake Mead recreational area in May 2012. Court records reference Bundy's confirmation in deposition that the cattle--branded or not--were indeed his on the tracts. Further, the DOJ detailed the family's ranching improvements to the off-limits New Trespass Lands to include corrals, water troughs, hay and grazing supplements—such improvements were explicitly prohibited for any party, according to court records. The government repeatedly reminded the court that no grazing permits in the disputed area were ever offered. When asked in deposition what reaction the Bundy family would have should an impoundment occur, Cliven said he'd do "whatever it takes" to include physical force to stop such action.

The U.S. Government claimed that cattle on or near the two off-limits tracts posed "a significant risk to public safety." Federal agencies claimed to have been in receipt of reports "of vehicle collisions and near collisions" due to the cattle. Bundy directly denied the allegation.

Throughout litigation, the Bundy family defended its actions using similar defense theories from prior litigation—despite the federal court's rejection of them. The family argued that the United States did not in fact maintain jurisdiction or ownership of the federal lands in question, citing a specific Nevada code NRS 321.596 Legislative Findings. Bundy also challenged the inclusion of the tortoise as an endangered species.

In July 2013, the federal court granted the DOJ's motion for summary judgment in favor of the U.S. Government. The court reiterated its position that "the public lands of Nevada are the property of the United States because the United States has held title to those public lands since 1848, when Mexico ceded the land to the United States."

The Nevada federal district court offered a rather blunt summary of its ruling, "In sum, this most recent effort to oppose the United States' legal process, Bundy has produced no valid law or specific facts raising a genuine issue of fact regarding federal ownership or management of the public lands of Nevada, or that his cattle have not trespassed on the New Trespass Lands."
In February 2014, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals again rejected Bundy's claims.

Mythbusting

Despite the obvious partisan gain to be had if Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's son Rory (a failed 2010 Nevada gubernatorial candidate) had somehow been involved in a "land grab" affecting the Bundy family ranch operation—the facts just do not pan out as such. Indeed, Rory Reid did in fact have a hand in plans to reclassify federal lands for renewable energy developments. Just northeast of Las Vegas and Nellis Air Force Base, plans were drawn by Reid allies to potentially develop 5,717 acres of land for such use. While it would be fair to claim that such activity was in Bundy's relative neighborhood, the federal lands once leased by the family were more than 20 miles away, east of Overton, Nevada. Contrasting maps offered by InfoWars and those entered into federal court record prove such a theory to be a stretch.

A second dominant claim pushed by Mr. Bundy is that he was paying appropriate dues to Clark County, Nevada for land use and grazing rights—therefore implying that the county was on his side of the issue. In Bundy's January 2013 response to U.S.'s Motion for Summary Judgment, he argued that he was in compliance with all applicable state and local laws but then threw blame at the feet of local officials for failure to "fence out" his livestock from protected lands. The claim of good standing is further damaged by the fact that Clark County law enforcement sought to assist the BLM in removing the Bundy family's then-allegedly trespassing cattle in April 2012.

No Easy Solutions

Hundreds of the Bundy family neighbors have been pushed out of ranching, a profession and culture the families shared with generations of their ancestors, by the federal government slowly restricting more and more of the usage of federal lands. The Bundy family has held on—but holding on meant ignoring the rule of law, as much as they would argue that the federal government has ignored the rule of law. After years of federal overreach and corruption—especially from federal agencies restricting public lands or effectively taking the value out of privately-held lands to protect tortoises, spotted owls, and ponds a bird might someday land in—many Americans are boiling and looking for an instance to stand against. The Bundy ranch has filled that role for many. Stated concerns over this being a new Waco or Ruby Ridge have come from the family. The federal government clearly views the armed Bundy supporters with concern—as evidenced by reports of government snipers being nearby and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) issuing a no-fly zone for three miles surrounding the Bundy ranch.

What Might Happen

Though tensions are now high between two opposing groups of armed and frustrated people, the government is taking cattle, no one is physically stopping them, and the militia and other armed citizens camping near the Bundy ranch swear they will only use violence if "the government" fires first. Absent a specific physical location or facility under threat of a raid by federal agents, the ordeal might end without bloodshed. This notion is furthered by the vast area of land the Bundy cattle is dispersed upon and the ability of federal agents to take the cattle without being near the Bundy family supporters.

There are several roadways through the mountainous area around the Bundy ranch and federal agents have the ability to utilize other roads than the two with pro-Bundy family supporters and militias nearby.

Provided no hot-headed lone individual or group within the militia decides to fire and provided no managers within federal law enforcement agencies decide to be provocative and flaunt their might by choosing the two roads containing armed, angry and frustrated citizens supporting the Bundy ranch—this ordeal just might end without bloodshed.

The Bundy family claimed to the national media, to get support against an over reaching government, this was over land they owned, which it was not it was landed they were once permitted/allowed to use by the Federal Government. Sad as it is, the government did not take their permits, they were revoke for NONPAYMENT, as the Bundy's stopped paying out of protest of a government they no long recognized to be legit. Then they illegally access more land than they ever were legally permitted to use. What would happen if everyone that had a beef with the government just stop recognizing them to be legit and did as they damn well wanted without repercussions? :? Should every Tea Party group that was targeted by the IRS just stop paying their taxes and stop trying to make a difference a LEGAL WAY? :?

The water development the BLM took the backhoes in to remove was on land that was never permitted for water development by anyone. Ask the Johnson family in Wyoming what the Federal Government thinks of unpermitted water development even on private land, let alone Federally Controlled public lands. They are facing $75k a day fines until they removed a simple little stock pond on their private land because they did not use the Army Core of Engineers to permit and build it after they had already got all the State required permits and the State go ahead to built it.

This was not a case where the Government told them to get out and then ignored the issue for twenty years, it was an on going legal struggle to get a defiant rancher to obey the rules when it came to accessing Federally controlled lands that cost tax payer millions to carry out.

Stated concerns over this being a new Waco or Ruby Ridge have come from the family.
The Bundy family were the ones that put out a call for support that brought rightwing extremists armed with assault rifles from all over the nation to their side. :?

Granted This family had a legitimate fight with the government due to the ever changing rules but if this story is correct, which I believe it is as it was written from court documents by a Rightwing website not a left bias government loving website, Bundy's own court statements and criminal trespassing actions warranted the very kind of actions the government took to protect the governments interests and employees. You do not admit in court under oath and to the media you will do anything to stop the government (that you do not recognize to be legit) and not expect they are going to come prepared for what ever you might do especially when you have called in armed militants from all over the nation to protest during the cattle roundup. :roll:

The land like it or not was Federally controlled before the Bundy family settled there 140 years ago. It was NOT State controlled or County controlled or Bundy privately owned land so when Bundy admitted to the press IF it was Federal land he was in the wrong, he already knew that answer and did not recognize or care about the truth.

Like it or not he had a legal obligation to pay the fees to the Federal Government to access that land and for 20 years he DID NOT. Just because you do not like your landlord's rules that does not give you the right to ignore the fact the landlord exists and do as you damn well like with his property. It does not give you the right to start tearing down walls to the apartments next door so you can have a large area to spread your stuff out either.

You may think this was a no win situation and the Bundy family may have thought they had nothing to lose by doing what they did but after reading this article can you really admit Bundy was dealing with this in any legal way? I realize he did not like what was happening to his fellow ranching friends but does that give him any legal rights to ignore the federal government exists?

This is not the Wild West where the law of the land is take what you want and if it was the good old days where cowboys settled things on the range, this range war Bundy was picking would have ended with Bundy's neighbors shooting his cattle for trespassing on their land, not them offering to take them to a auction of the family's choice with the check going to the family. AND likely the frustrated neighbors would have chipped in to buy a new rope to string Bundy from the highest tree for trespassing. Again if this article is true the Bundy family should be thankful their father is not in a federal prison for Contempt of Court and Criminal trespassing. :roll:

That said BLM rules need to be reworked so some common sense is used and families can make long term plans for their operations so when the political party in control in DC changes the rules DON'T but denying the other side of the festering issue exists is not the way to do it.
 
Tam said:
Wow maybe I should rethink my stand I have both Kola and Oldtimer agreeing with me in one day. :wink:

.



Contrary to most here, I do not instantly condemn what you post just because it's YOU!!

Many on here jump on anything I post just cause it happens to be next to my avatar!

In this case, I happen to agree with you, nothing more...nothing less!!
 
It would take pages of diagram to even attempt sorting out this wicked mess! And it is pretty obvious many causes and motivations are not what they appear to be.

Just guessing, based on similar family situation of both sides of our family living and ranching in western SD since pioneer days (that is, before the land was opened for homesteading about 1906). I believe some people purchased land, others simply 'settled' on land not clearly owned by another. It was partially, or wholly owned at that time by Indian Tribes.
Our families purchased land from someone, and later, homesteaded to gain more land. As the homesteads simply set people up to fail by being too small to raise enough crops or livestock to support a family, some families were able to buy land as the original homesteaders left for 'greener pastures'. It was a very harsh land and making a living was truly a matter of survival of the toughest, in many cases. All that to say that I understand the family mindset of believing they 'own' that land. The states where someone or group decided that government ownership was preferable to individual ownership really set up this situation, it could be argued.

Add a politician of demonstrated questionable character, to this 'perfect storm' of circumstances (water rights, cities in desperate need of water, and fortunes to be made by whomever can control that water source....and more) and why are we surprised by this situation?

I will say, with my public water system purchasing the water out of the Missouri River from a Sioux Indian tribe can seem a cause for concern, yet, it seems rock solid compared with anyone connected with Harry Reid 'owning' the water source!!!
 
Send the blm an email. Address found at this link.

http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/info/newsroom/2014/april/southern_nevada__cattle.html
 
leanin' H said:
Prior to the 1930's if you owned the water right in an area you controlled the land. In most of the west, without water you are done. No farming or grazing, even homesteads wouldn't be possible without water. We own the water rights all over the grazing allotment we use. Even if we didn't graze, no one else could because they wouldn't have water. So prior to the Taylor Grazing act of the 1930's even though it was public land, it was almost like private land. We think of our allotment as "our" land because we have generations of blood, sweat and tears invested in it. 99% of ranchers take better care of public land than the "public" does. WE don't leave trash everywhere, defecate behind every bush near campsites without covering it up, start wild land fires from campfires or stupidity, tear up meadows and riparian areas with atvs, shoot signs and gates and leave empty casings everywhere, ect

The Taylor grazing act was needed to rein in large corporate ranches who would flood the range with to many cattle and devastate the resource. They would move the cows after the grass was gone but the damage was done. The taylor act put regulation in place to protect the resource from over grazing. It ended free grazing and folks who owned the water rights and had homesteads and private land had priority over roving outfits with home bases in different states. My great, great grandfather was awarded our grazing rights and we have kept them in our family ever since. They have a cash value if we choose to sell them that is whatever the market dictates. Only the person or ranch that owns the grazing right can graze cattle on each allotment. Currently, each cow/calf unit is worth about $4000 to buy that grazing right. That does not include the animal. We pay approximately $1.85 per AUM from May 15th to Nov. 1st. That is not a charge per AUM like you pay for private land leases. It is a fee on the grazing right that we own. For that Right, you get to deal with the public 24/7. You also get government regulation that rarely makes sense. It is not a free lunch.

Mr. Bundy maintains his rights from before the taylor grazing act. The courts have ruled against him and he must believe he doesn't need to comply because he disagrees with the ruling. While I sympathize with him, I don't see how he will win this. The government backs the BLM with the endangered species act. The current political climate is against him and throw in these radical environmental groups who dictate policy for the BLM and Forest Service I cant see how he wins. I commend his fight and see his point. apparently 80 million buffalo never stepped on a turtle but 1000 cows will hunt them down and kick them over ledges just for fun. I hope this epistle clears up things a little. It is a complex and emotional issue. It comes down to folks are tired of mismanagement and out right war carried out on them by the BLM. The ranger managers used to be people who had experience in ranching, mining, logging, ect. Now they are here to SAVE the west from the evil influence of greedy, ignorant ranchers. They have degrees from Delaware State and have never seen a cow til they arrive to change the world. This issue combines all this emotion and distrust and adds flak jackets and police dogs and tazers and you have the complete cluster it became. Thanks for having an open mind and asking questions instead of just assuming the Bundys were wrong. They aren't perfect, but I'd submit most people from this site might react likewise if we walked in Mr. Bundys boots. PM me if ya need more info.

I am happy to see the BLM blinked and hope cooler heads prevail. For the good of the land and the cattle and the families and the federal officials. Now would be a wonderful time for leadership from this joke of a president.



What does an aum consist of? and $1.85 is that per day,week,month or for the duration?
 
Denny said:
leanin' H said:
Prior to the 1930's if you owned the water right in an area you controlled the land. In most of the west, without water you are done. No farming or grazing, even homesteads wouldn't be possible without water. We own the water rights all over the grazing allotment we use. Even if we didn't graze, no one else could because they wouldn't have water. So prior to the Taylor Grazing act of the 1930's even though it was public land, it was almost like private land. We think of our allotment as "our" land because we have generations of blood, sweat and tears invested in it. 99% of ranchers take better care of public land than the "public" does. WE don't leave trash everywhere, defecate behind every bush near campsites without covering it up, start wild land fires from campfires or stupidity, tear up meadows and riparian areas with atvs, shoot signs and gates and leave empty casings everywhere, ect

The Taylor grazing act was needed to rein in large corporate ranches who would flood the range with to many cattle and devastate the resource. They would move the cows after the grass was gone but the damage was done. The taylor act put regulation in place to protect the resource from over grazing. It ended free grazing and folks who owned the water rights and had homesteads and private land had priority over roving outfits with home bases in different states. My great, great grandfather was awarded our grazing rights and we have kept them in our family ever since. They have a cash value if we choose to sell them that is whatever the market dictates. Only the person or ranch that owns the grazing right can graze cattle on each allotment. Currently, each cow/calf unit is worth about $4000 to buy that grazing right. That does not include the animal. We pay approximately $1.85 per AUM from May 15th to Nov. 1st. That is not a charge per AUM like you pay for private land leases. It is a fee on the grazing right that we own. For that Right, you get to deal with the public 24/7. You also get government regulation that rarely makes sense. It is not a free lunch.

Mr. Bundy maintains his rights from before the taylor grazing act. The courts have ruled against him and he must believe he doesn't need to comply because he disagrees with the ruling. While I sympathize with him, I don't see how he will win this. The government backs the BLM with the endangered species act. The current political climate is against him and throw in these radical environmental groups who dictate policy for the BLM and Forest Service I cant see how he wins. I commend his fight and see his point. apparently 80 million buffalo never stepped on a turtle but 1000 cows will hunt them down and kick them over ledges just for fun. I hope this epistle clears up things a little. It is a complex and emotional issue. It comes down to folks are tired of mismanagement and out right war carried out on them by the BLM. The ranger managers used to be people who had experience in ranching, mining, logging, ect. Now they are here to SAVE the west from the evil influence of greedy, ignorant ranchers. They have degrees from Delaware State and have never seen a cow til they arrive to change the world. This issue combines all this emotion and distrust and adds flak jackets and police dogs and tazers and you have the complete cluster it became. Thanks for having an open mind and asking questions instead of just assuming the Bundys were wrong. They aren't perfect, but I'd submit most people from this site might react likewise if we walked in Mr. Bundys boots. PM me if ya need more info.

I am happy to see the BLM blinked and hope cooler heads prevail. For the good of the land and the cattle and the families and the federal officials. Now would be a wonderful time for leadership from this joke of a president.



What does an aum consist of? and $1.85 is that per day,week,month or for the duration?

An AUM is Animal Unit Measure. It equals 1 cow/calf unit per month of graze. $1.85 is a fee on the AUM for each pair per month for the duration of said permit. Usually May through October depending on each ranges elevation, moisture, ect. Do not confuse the $1.85 with what you pay for a lease on private land. 2 completely separate things as I explained. Hope this helps.
 

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