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Kit shows the way ahead

Also if a deer comes up open knowone knows the differance unless they shoot her or she'll go a year and breed then. I wonder what the live fawn average is..
 
I don't understand one thing. Far and away the biggest rebuttal to Kit's ideas is....."that may work for him in his area, but it sure won't work in mine."

I've seen that response from at least one person in all 50 states. (maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the point.) People whose areas are wetter, drier, hotter, colder, more humid, etc., etc. than his.

I wish somebody would give me a specific example of where Kit has said anything about anything that relates to the area you live in.

I sure don't know everything the man says, but what little I have seen has to deal with philosiphies and ideas....not rules governed by where you live.

One example I remember is to maximize profit and not worry as much about maximizing production.

Why is that a sound theory in Eastern Colorado, but a terrible idea in Vermont, California, Texas, Canada, Kansas, South Dakota and Hawaii? I simply don't understand that.

I don't mind being schooled at all, so please show me something Kit has said that is "area-specific".

Thanks
 
Most cows hit the peak of lactation 50-60 days post calving. If you really want to increase her nutritional needs throw in cold and wet weather along with windchill while she is increasing her milk production.

Some years back in my younger and dumber days we started calving at the end of January. The cows that calved in the first 30 days or so we considered candidates for the AI program. They got the very best hay, lick tubs etc. One dry spring when the hay supply was short I let some of the later bred cows calve out in the hay fields. Mostly they had to scrounge for a living with occasionally some poorer quality hay. One day while heat detecting the earlier calving group that were 80 or so days postpartum I looked out in the field and saw a bunch of the late calvers riding each other - some were less then a month postpartum. I was still waiting for some of the early calvers to cycle for the first time :o
 
movin' on said:
I don't understand one thing. Far and away the biggest rebuttal to Kit's ideas is....."that may work for him in his area, but it sure won't work in mine."

I've seen that response from at least one person in all 50 states. (maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the point.) People whose areas are wetter, drier, hotter, colder, more humid, etc., etc. than his.

I wish somebody would give me a specific example of where Kit has said anything about anything that relates to the area you live in.

I sure don't know everything the man says, but what little I have seen has to deal with philosiphies and ideas....not rules governed by where you live.

One example I remember is to maximize profit and not worry as much about maximizing production.

Why is that a sound theory in Eastern Colorado, but a terrible idea in Vermont, California, Texas, Canada, Kansas, South Dakota and Hawaii? I simply don't understand that.

I don't mind being schooled at all, so please show me something Kit has said that is "area-specific".

Thanks
Click to expand...

For starters, this Kit character certainly doesn't have a lock on many of these ideas I've seen floating around here. Maximizing profit rather than production is something most of us that are still in business have been doing for a while.
I can tell you that cattle can not be grazed all winter up here, period. So in this area you better find better ways to economize.
 
movin' on said:
I don't understand one thing. Far and away the biggest rebuttal to Kit's ideas is....."that may work for him in his area, but it sure won't work in mine."

I've seen that response from at least one person in all 50 states. (maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the point.) People whose areas are wetter, drier, hotter, colder, more humid, etc., etc. than his.

I wish somebody would give me a specific example of where Kit has said anything about anything that relates to the area you live in.

I sure don't know everything the man says, but what little I have seen has to deal with philosiphies and ideas....not rules governed by where you live.

One example I remember is to maximize profit and not worry as much about maximizing production.

Why is that a sound theory in Eastern Colorado, but a terrible idea in Vermont, California, Texas, Canada, Kansas, South Dakota and Hawaii? I simply don't understand that.

I don't mind being schooled at all, so please show me something Kit has said that is "area-specific".

Thanks
Click to expand...

There is a very significant discount to be suffered up here selling calves or yearlings that are less than 4 frame score, I don't know about other areas. When cattle are less then 4 frame score the idea I was testing was that the lighter calves brought more per lb and if your cow size was similar also than you could run more cows off the same land base as the bigger cows get more total lbs and sell those lbs for the bigger price as the lighter cattle virtually always bring more per lb. Sounds good in theory. Except the buyers discounted the less than 4 frame cattle to the point that the financial gain was not realized. Frame 5 to 4 will work less than that and it won't, thats my experience after spending 20 years working on it. Moral of the story lighter with enough frame work, lighter cattle that are less than 4 frame score don't, not here.
 
Silver said:
movin' on said:
I don't understand one thing. Far and away the biggest rebuttal to Kit's ideas is....."that may work for him in his area, but it sure won't work in mine."

I've seen that response from at least one person in all 50 states. (maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the point.) People whose areas are wetter, drier, hotter, colder, more humid, etc., etc. than his.

I wish somebody would give me a specific example of where Kit has said anything about anything that relates to the area you live in.

I sure don't know everything the man says, but what little I have seen has to deal with philosiphies and ideas....not rules governed by where you live.

One example I remember is to maximize profit and not worry as much about maximizing production.

Why is that a sound theory in Eastern Colorado, but a terrible idea in Vermont, California, Texas, Canada, Kansas, South Dakota and Hawaii? I simply don't understand that.

I don't mind being schooled at all, so please show me something Kit has said that is "area-specific".

Thanks
Click to expand...

For starters, this Kit character certainly doesn't have a lock on many of these ideas I've seen floating around here. Maximizing profit rather than production is something most of us that are still in business have been doing for a while.
I can tell you that cattle can not be grazed all winter up here, period. So in this area you better find better ways to economize.
Click to expand...

Well said Silver.

I am also wondering if Mr Pharo's speaking seminars would be considered an off-farm job, thereby indicating that it may not be as rosy being a deciple of his as he may indicate. :wink:
 
Dylan Biggs said:
movin' on said:
I don't understand one thing. Far and away the biggest rebuttal to Kit's ideas is....."that may work for him in his area, but it sure won't work in mine."

I've seen that response from at least one person in all 50 states. (maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the point.) People whose areas are wetter, drier, hotter, colder, more humid, etc., etc. than his.

I wish somebody would give me a specific example of where Kit has said anything about anything that relates to the area you live in.

I sure don't know everything the man says, but what little I have seen has to deal with philosiphies and ideas....not rules governed by where you live.

One example I remember is to maximize profit and not worry as much about maximizing production.

Why is that a sound theory in Eastern Colorado, but a terrible idea in Vermont, California, Texas, Canada, Kansas, South Dakota and Hawaii? I simply don't understand that.

I don't mind being schooled at all, so please show me something Kit has said that is "area-specific".

Thanks
Click to expand...

There is a very significant discount to be suffered up here selling calves or yearlings that are less than 4 frame score, I don't know about other areas. When cattle are less then 4 frame score the idea I was testing was that the lighter calves brought more per lb and if your cow size was similar also than you could run more cows off the same land base as the bigger cows get more total lbs and sell those lbs for the bigger price as the lighter cattle virtually always bring more per lb. Sounds good in theory. Except the buyers discounted the less than 4 frame cattle to the point that the financial gain was not realized. Frame 5 to 4 will work less than that and it won't, thats my experience after spending 20 years working on it. Moral of the story lighter with enough frame work, lighter cattle that are less than 4 frame score don't, not here.
Click to expand...

Another thought is that in our case at least, before bse, cull / dry cow sales amounted to at between 20% and 25% of revenue. Small cows here always sell for less per pound. The difference between say $.35 / lb x 1000 lbs ($350) and $.45 / lb x 1400 ($630) is pretty substantial. It may not always be that extreme, but it can be and it can be more so.
 
Silver, I agree that most of Kit's ideas that I've seen are not new. However, most of the people I come in contact with do not employ them. Weaning weight in October trumps everything.

If you simply have to feed hay, is it so wrong to suggest trying to try to find ways to cheapen things up elsewhere?

Maybe I don't dig deep enough, but I just haven't found Kit as abrasive as most seem to. I think he's a little brash, sometimes, but that doesn't bother me that much.

Maybe because I am young, a first generation cattleman, and not set in my ways, I like to listen to different points of view?

I do agree that you have to keep the next owner of your cattle in mind.

Does Kit sell a lot of cattle that are less than a 4 frame score?

Doesn't the cost of maintaining a bigger cow for 10 years offset the little extra she may bring at culling time?

Talk to me, guys.
 
movin' on said:
Doesn't the cost of maintaining a bigger cow for 10 years offset the little extra she may bring at culling time?

Talk to me, guys.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't consider $200-$300 per head insignificant. In any case, it would depend on if you buy feed and for how much, or if you put up your own and what you value it at. If you put up your own hay it would be pretty hard to poke an entire extra bale down a cows throat every year to make things not pencil out. On top of that, if even she does eat an extra bale or two over her life time you wouldn't ever be able to sell your hay for what you get when you sell the cow.
 
$200-300 in not insignificant, you're right about that. I believe that it could easily be fed away in increased maintanence costs of big cows versus moderate sized cows. I guess that would depend greatly on how many days a year that hay is fed. It's obviously something that not everyone is ever going to agree on.

Here's another big can of worms. Is hay that you put up yourself really any cheaper than hay that you buy? I have analyzed this for years and keep coming up with the fact that $60 a ton hay is $60 a ton hay whether it's bought at that value or fed rather than sold at that value.

I bet I can find some that disagree with me on that! :lol:
 
movin' on said:
$200-300 in not insignificant, you're right about that. I believe that it could easily be fed away in increased maintanence costs of big cows versus moderate sized cows. I guess that would depend greatly on how many days a year that hay is fed. It's obviously something that not everyone is ever going to agree on.

Here's another big can of worms. Is hay that you put up yourself really any cheaper than hay that you buy? I have analyzed this for years and keep coming up with the fact that $60 a ton hay is $60 a ton hay whether it's bought at that value or fed rather than sold at that value.

I bet I can find some that disagree with me on that! :lol:
Click to expand...

I was referring to the difference between moderate sized cows and small cows. Although I suppose defining moderate could start an argument too :D
The fact is if you have cows (here anyway) you're going to have to feed them. It's up to the individual to decide how it pencils out the best for their given situation.
I like moderate cattle and maybe because I like them and how they work I make them pencil out. At the end of the day though I don't want to raise little cattle, really big cattle or goats. So I'll raise these cattle as efficiently as possible
:wink:
 
Silver said:
movin' on said:
$200-300 in not insignificant, you're right about that. I believe that it could easily be fed away in increased maintanence costs of big cows versus moderate sized cows. I guess that would depend greatly on how many days a year that hay is fed. It's obviously something that not everyone is ever going to agree on.

Here's another big can of worms. Is hay that you put up yourself really any cheaper than hay that you buy? I have analyzed this for years and keep coming up with the fact that $60 a ton hay is $60 a ton hay whether it's bought at that value or fed rather than sold at that value.

I bet I can find some that disagree with me on that! :lol:
Click to expand...

I was referring to the difference between moderate sized cows and small cows. Although I suppose defining moderate could start an argument too :D
The fact is if you have cows (here anyway) you're going to have to feed them. It's up to the individual to decide how it pencils out the best for their given situation.
I like moderate cattle and maybe because I like them and how they work I make them pencil out. At the end of the day though I don't want to raise little cattle, really big cattle or goats. So I'll raise these cattle as efficiently as possible
:wink:
Click to expand...

I'm with you. Moderate is best.

Something I do really disagree with a lot of people on...... does "1,100 lbs" really mean anything? I can't handle when people get hung up on that weight. Can you measure the amount of water in a lake by only knowing the surface area? Don't you also have to know the depth? A "moderate" 5 frame cow that only weighs 1,100 lbs. is not deep/wide enough in my opinion. If I've got a 5 frame cow that does everything she's supposed to, she's going to weigh more than 1,100 lbs. To get a stout/deep/wide cow to only weigh 1,100 lbs., she's going to have to be a really short gal. Then we get to that less than 4 frame that Biggs was talking about, and their offspring usually don't work well for the conventional feeder that buys weaned calves.

At any rate, I don't like to get hung up on that "1,100 lb." weight that a lot of guys in my "circle" get stuck on.

Your thoughts?
 
I've talked to Kit a few times-he's a pretty interesting guy for sure. Big cows sometimes pay off their feed at culling time but it sure wouldn'
t be my argument for running big cattle-we ran them for about 35 years around here. Heck I was even in the Charolais national add a lifetime ago lol.
 
movin' on said:
Silver said:
movin' on said:
$200-300 in not insignificant, you're right about that. I believe that it could easily be fed away in increased maintanence costs of big cows versus moderate sized cows. I guess that would depend greatly on how many days a year that hay is fed. It's obviously something that not everyone is ever going to agree on.

Here's another big can of worms. Is hay that you put up yourself really any cheaper than hay that you buy? I have analyzed this for years and keep coming up with the fact that $60 a ton hay is $60 a ton hay whether it's bought at that value or fed rather than sold at that value.

I bet I can find some that disagree with me on that! :lol:
Click to expand...

I was referring to the difference between moderate sized cows and small cows. Although I suppose defining moderate could start an argument too :D
The fact is if you have cows (here anyway) you're going to have to feed them. It's up to the individual to decide how it pencils out the best for their given situation.
I like moderate cattle and maybe because I like them and how they work I make them pencil out. At the end of the day though I don't want to raise little cattle, really big cattle or goats. So I'll raise these cattle as efficiently as possible
:wink:
Click to expand...

I'm with you. Moderate is best.

Something I do really disagree with a lot of people on...... does "1,100 lbs" really mean anything? I can't handle when people get hung up on that weight. Can you measure the amount of water in a lake by only knowing the surface area? Don't you also have to know the depth? A "moderate" 5 frame cow that only weighs 1,100 lbs. is not deep/wide enough in my opinion. If I've got a 5 frame cow that does everything she's supposed to, she's going to weigh more than 1,100 lbs. To get a stout/deep/wide cow to only weigh 1,100 lbs., she's going to have to be a really short gal. Then we get to that less than 4 frame that Biggs was talking about, and their offspring usually don't work well for the conventional feeder that buys weaned calves.

At any rate, I don't like to get hung up on that "1,100 lb." weight that a lot of guys in my "circle" get stuck on.

Your thoughts?
Click to expand...

I agree with that 100%. The cows that seem to do the best around here are fairly wide and quite deep, lots of middle. To achieve that a cow in good condition seems to weigh 1300-1450. I will admit that we have some cows outside that class both bigger and smaller but the biggest part of them fall in around 1400 or so come sale time in the fall when they're in good shape.
I think it's too easy to say a ranches efficiency depends on the size of cow. I think a lot of people could save 15% of their feed by becoming better at feeding and another 15% by putting up better feed. Another area many including this operation could improve is getting more longevity out of a stand of hay. It seems to cost around $100 per acre to rejuvenate hay land here. If we could make that stand last longer and / or learn better, cheaper ways to rejuvenate it we would be talking about serious savings.
 
When we ran charx cows they weighed about that-I never kept anything over a halfblood though-the biggest cow I ever owned was a horned hereford I'd bought she was a smidgeon under 1800 when i canned her. I imagine the freight on bought hay in Silver's country would be scary-I buy mine because I don't have enough land to run my cows and grow enough hay so I just eliminated that enterprise-most years were a hay surplus area. Hay can get spendy in a drought but so can having no hay to make and equipment payments coming up.
 
Northern Rancher said:
When we ran charx cows they weighed about that-I never kept anything over a halfblood though-the biggest cow I ever owned was a horned hereford I'd bought she was a smidgeon under 1800 when i canned her. I imagine the freight on bought hay in Silver's country would be scary-I buy mine because I don't have enough land to run my cows and grow enough hay so I just eliminated that enterprise-most years were a hay surplus area. Hay can get spendy in a drought but so can having no hay to make and equipment payments coming up.
Click to expand...

If there was a reliable source of reasonably priced hay close by I'd be all for buying it. But with everybody here addicted to the oil patch rates for their trucks it's hard to get one to work for less than $180 per hour. If you have to pay 4 hrs for a load of hay and $50 per bale it doesn't work very well. There is a lot of hay sold out of this country most years, take the drive from Kamloops north lots of times and that all you meet is hay trucks from the Peace country. I don't know who buys it but they've got deeper pockets than I do.
 

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