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Kit shows the way ahead

Oldtimer said:
BRG said:
WB said:
Back to the original topic: I know Kit ruffles some feathers of his competition with his brazen talk how his bulls are better but if most wasn't true then why has he been so successful? I mean we probably all put down some registered outfit somewhere sometime don't we? I think most of us are trying to breed better cattle we have to decide what our wants and needs are. One thing that raises my hair is his newsletter that states his bulls will breed more cows for more years. While this may be true on the average it can't be an absolute statement because you always will come across a slow lazy breeder occaisonally. And as far as putting up hay well it really depends on were your operation runs. I don't think Kits cows could rustle through 3 ft. snow and live on the low quality forage that is below it in a winter like we just have let alone thrive on it.
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There are alot of breeders that do things a little different than him and are pretty successful as well.
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Yep-- and each think they are doing it the best way or the right way- and raising the best cattle for their situation.....

But if you never look at new ideas or different methods- you will never know if there is a better way....The reason I love to hear about all the differing herds/breeds/ideas for running cattle....Many times their experiences can save me/us grief in the long run..

I don't think any of us are smart enough not to learn a little more from those that have been there....
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I agree with that completely OT. I don't know much about this Kit character, sounds like he may be a good operator in his area. I'm not to interested in his line of thinking but I'm sure it has it's good points for where he's at.
I like to see what folks in my area are trying. A guy can learn as much or more from what doesn't work as from what does. That's one of the great things about this site. I can find out what has and hasn't worked for people in similar situations as myself.
 
Kit Pharo is a salesman and he is trying to sell his cattle plan and simple. I dont care for his ideas or his letter that he sends out all the time so I just told him I dont want it anymore. I could care less how he thinks or about his ideas. Me personally I dont care for his bulls but thats just me, I got two places that I like their bulls and thats where I go.
 
I'm going to draw a hockey anology here-I've coached for 14 years-lierally hundreds of games from tier one midget to prenovice. When I see somebody slamming minor hockey coaches and coaching techniques I don't feel threatened by it all because I know I'm a good coach and do the best for the players. If your a purebred outfit and the industry gets some bad press why worry about it if you know yourself your doing things right. Purebred breeders aren't the devil incarnate but they all aren't angels in muck boots either-I think most posts about them both good and bad have some basis in fact.
 
Dylan Biggs said:
Andybob, adaptation to our local environment will only take you so far, at -35 or -40 with a wind chill that takes temps into -60, -70, the coldest I have seen here is -95 with wind chill for extended periods with out supplementation and no cover from the wind except a 4 wire fence cattle just die. The early cattle pioneers got lulled into complacency by mild winters when they first brought cattle into the western provinces from the south, and when old man winter payed a serious visit 100,s of thousands cattle died. Some outfits lost their entire herds. Since then people have learned to put up hay. You can adapt cattle and you can select cattle but you can't practice evolution and turn a cow into a buffalo. To suggest that the only reason that profits in this business are shrinking is due to lack of forage adapted cattle and can be addressed with such is simply fanciful thinking. Our cattle have endured winters on this ranch sine the mid 50,s and were from local stock that were raised here long before that. If you don't believe me you should come pay us a visit on this bald open prairie and experience for yourself the bone chilling, mind numbing reality of -40 with a 60 or 70 km wind. It would give you a cool outlook on bovine adaptation. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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I understand that, unlike my past situation where adaptation to poor forage, heat and parasites, yours is cold, frozen water and no accessable winter forage (too deep snow). The use of adapted Celtic cattle or Nordic breeds would require less feed for heat maintainence than say breeds from southern France or Italy. There might be worthwhile gene pools from the feral populations in Alaska on Chirikof Island or Scotland's Swona island cattle. As is often the case, the better adapted breeds, the Highland or Galloway for your area are often discounted commercially size or too long coat in summer, can be addressed by maintaining a pure neucleus herd and breeding a better conformed or better shedding F1 as the main herd, with a possible terminal thereafter if the herd is large enough, or possibly selling F1 females to other breeders in your area for their terminal program, this worked for me before the export market opened up a larger market for my pedigree cattle in Rhodesia.
I don't claim to have the answers, I just try to encourage more "thinking out of the box" but cutting costs is one way many cattlemen should consider to increase profits.
 
No doubt about cutting costs, and in my experience it doesn't hurt to work on the other side of the equation also by becoming a price setter instead of a powerless price taker.

Dylan
 
I'm going to pipe up here, for what it's worth.

The bottom line is to take a good honest look at your situation, and use the kind of cattle that fit what you've got to work with. Every operation is different. In this country cattle are raised in a huge range of conditions, from places in B.C. where you can get cut after cut of top alfalfa from irrigated bottom land, to places in southern Saskatchewan where you can watch your dog run away for three days. :wink:

You have to manage your cow herd fit your climate and facilities, not some other person's idea of how it should be managed. For instance, if you already have facilities for calving, why not calf early and go for the big weaning calf? Where's the economy of leaving a good facility empty? It may as well be earning you money. It's just sitting there.

If you have lots of pasture close to home, and you don't want to spend the money on facilities, then you can go with a lower input, grass based system that would use a different type of cow. Maybe you don't like calving in the winter, so you calve in the summer. Maybe you like to go fishing in the summer, so you calve in the winter.

The fact is that every operation is different, and if we all raised identical cattle under identical management systems, we would all suffer lower prices. There is a home for just about every type of beef animal being raised, and the fact that we are all so diverse is an advantage for all of us.

Everyone has got to think for themselves. When someone comes along with a new idea, or way of doing things, we need to listen, analyze, and then pick the bits that apply to us. Anyone who says they know it all, is proving that they don't.

That's all I have to say about that. 8)
 
Kato said:
I'm going to pipe up here, for what it's worth.

The bottom line is to take a good honest look at your situation, and use the kind of cattle that fit what you've got to work with. Every operation is different. In this country cattle are raised in a huge range of conditions, from places in B.C. where you can get cut after cut of top alfalfa from irrigated bottom land, to places in southern Saskatchewan where you can watch your dog run away for three days. :wink:

You have to manage your cow herd fit your climate and facilities, not some other person's idea of how it should be managed. For instance, if you already have facilities for calving, why not calf early and go for the big weaning calf? Where's the economy of leaving a good facility empty? It may as well be earning you money. It's just sitting there.

If you have lots of pasture close to home, and you don't want to spend the money on facilities, then you can go with a lower input, grass based system that would use a different type of cow. Maybe you don't like calving in the winter, so you calve in the summer. Maybe you like to go fishing in the summer, so you calve in the winter.

The fact is that every operation is different, and if we all raised identical cattle under identical management systems, we would all suffer lower prices. There is a home for just about every type of beef animal being raised, and the fact that we are all so diverse is an advantage for all of us.

Everyone has got to think for themselves. When someone comes along with a new idea, or way of doing things, we need to listen, analyze, and then pick the bits that apply to us. Anyone who says they know it all, is proving that they don't.

That's all I have to say about that. 8)
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Well said, very true!
 
My grandpa talked about breeding on green grass, not calving on it. They have to get pregnant before they can calve. Deer are not an appropriate model in my opinion. They are shorter gestation by about 3 months, and they generally get bred after fall moisture has provided a second flush of green grass before breeding. As well, they are breeding after being able to browse mature native berries for extra energy.

Badlands
 
Badlands said:
My grandpa talked about breeding on green grass, not calving on it. They have to get pregnant before they can calve. Deer are not an appropriate model in my opinion. They are shorter gestation by about 3 months, and they generally get bred after fall moisture has provided a second flush of green grass before breeding. As well, they are breeding after being able to browse mature native berries for extra energy.

Badlands
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Probably one of the best posts ever on this forum.

I firmly believe that you should calve out before the spring flush so that at spring flush you are just starting breeding season.
 
Badlands said:
My grandpa talked about breeding on green grass, not calving on it. They have to get pregnant before they can calve. Deer are not an appropriate model in my opinion. They are shorter gestation by about 3 months, and they generally get bred after fall moisture has provided a second flush of green grass before breeding. As well, they are breeding after being able to browse mature native berries for extra energy.

Badlands
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Is it not most cost effective to match the cows peak nutritional needs with the lands peak forage growth?

Is BCS at calving more important than forage at breeding?
 
The real answer to your question would depend on ALL of the economic considerations, RobertMac, cost of input (value of pasture rent) and value of output, coupled with cost of replacement in the herd.

My grandpa's system does this better than calving on peak forage. Go back and review when a cow's requirements, and thus intake, are at their highest. It happens about 3 months after calving.

Forage quantity relative to quality is maximized about June 20 - July 5 in my area of eastern MT. That puts calving about April 1 - 15. Green grass usually starts about April 15 - 20.

BCS at calving is important, yes, but some of that depends on availability of forage after calving along with environmental conditions. Calving too early means they can't gain enough condition back to breed well. Calving too late, as on peak grass, is a waste of nutrients. Cows are fat, but what was the point? They got fat on peak grass, only to have to use the fat off their back to feed the calf and breed on downward spiraling forage quality. Why not calve right before or at the fist flush of grass, and have the cows use what fat is left on their back, while ramping up metabolism and milk production, while preparing to breed? Additionally, calves are able to use the summer grass better as they are becoming functional ruminants earlier, utilizing higher quality grass than if they were born later.

Badlands
 

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