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Loos Angus Cow Herd dispersal and more...

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My two cents is: What works for some doesn't for others. And that is good.
And through ranchersnet we get to see differant operations on large and small scales and that is way cool....... To be too narrow minded on one type of operation is cutting short your knowledge...
 
I don't know alot about this grass fed market, but I assume that grass fed
means forage fed. They could be fatten on Haybet barley, pea hay and etc. So if their feed is in bale form that would be the same as grass fed. In our country, you could put some gain on the calves out on pasture, but to finish them on grass would be tough. I know you should never assume anything, but would I be correct in this assumption?
 
Shorthornguy said:
All natural grassfed beef is the way to go. Organic or not. To finish beef on grass you need to rotational graze.
Click to expand...
Shorthornguy - Right you are in regard to Rotational Grazing! This grazing technic is not exactly new - but it is the most sensible and logical way to manage any beef program that has surfaced yet! The BIG problem that faces a Beef operator is the land - and feed and water necessities which must be as optimal as the available grazing forage. If an operator were BEGINNING a program from scratch, and had unlimited funds to set it up correctly - cattle handling methods, hay acquisition, winter feeding, the "functioning" would be simple and fun, but to change the entire operation under which most ranches and farms are workng at the present time would be a formidable endeavor! But don't let that stop you from sitting down and working out at least some method of accomplishing PART of it! Go on the internet and do a "SEARCH" under "Rotational Grazing" and have a ball planning some changes for YOUR operation! Makes your daily chores less demanding, and reduces your labor and time factors, aside from improving efficiency.

The secret to making "Rotational Grazing" really functional is it does not interrupt the daily gain mode that your cattle achieve while grazing good pastures. It just enables them to continue to keep ON continuing to be "Contented Cows!" And that puts $$$$ in your bank account! (And healthier calves with less disease problems!) It is a Win Win deal!

It CAN be done!

DOC HARRIS
 
We have been rotational grazing for 15 years. We learn something new every year. We are constantly expermenting with different combinations of grasses. We improve all our pastures. We do not till. Go through with an aerator and direct seed. Some warm season grasses will not grow in our cold Springs so we wait till July to seed those pastures and stockpile those pastures for late Fall grazing.

For those of you who are looking at rotational grazing the NRCS office has grants and grazing experts available. It is not difficult or that expensive,
as much as it is a paradigmn shift and mindset.

:lol: :lol: I am lazy, I like to watch my cows do all the work. :lol:
And I don't need a big tillage tractor,equiptment,corn planter,or combine.
 
May I play the devil's advocate?

Lot's of folks are using "old" genetics because they think they will "work" for grass finishing.

So, in this age of rotational grazing and experimenting with varieties of grasses, when we say that we must do it this way, are we really admitting that the cattle didn't really work for the old timers either?

Maybe they didn't really finish them?

Badlands
 
For those of you who are looking at rotational grazing the NRCS office has grants and grazing experts available. It is not difficult or that expensive,
as much as it is a paradigmn shift and mindset.

[/quote]

I would be very careful of their grazing experts as they told the guy I lease from that we were overgrazing when there was still grass up to your knee in most places. They learn most of their stuff from books that were written by guys who were too smart to make it in the ranching buisness and have no common sense. They don't make their living from ranching so what they tell you doesn't effect them or their livelyhood. they get a government paycheck while you have to depend on your place for a living.
 
Ohh they worked fine for the oldtimers too-you don't need to rotational graze to finish cattle-you do need to manage your grass though. Rotational grazing 'DONE RIGHT' does work also-the eye of the master fattens the cattle-always has-always will.
 
NR,

I guess I ask the question as I see lots of conflict between the "preferred grass type" of today, and what history records the type of cattle the old timers had to be.

So, why the difference?

Romanticism?


Badlands
 
Badlands said:
NR,

I guess I ask the question as I see lots of conflict between the "preferred grass type" of today, and what history records the type of cattle the old timers had to be.

So, why the difference?

Romanticism?


Badlands
Click to expand...


I'm not quite sure what your meaning but my cattle graze the same grass my Grandfathers did and the same as the buffalo.
 
Are you writing a novel Badlands-'Grazers of the Purple Sage'-good grass cattle are no different now than they ever were just awhile back they all had to be able to perform on forage. Now a days there are more options-permutations amnd combinations so there are cattle that would have a hard time grazing to far from the feed buckets. Hey I don't know why people are worried about guys trying to do it all on grass-if they're so wrong they'll eliminate themselves. No romantiscism involved-more like a Shakespearean tragedy when we try to make a cow perform on a ration and conditions better suited for a sow.
 
Sorry, cowboyup, I am going to differ with you a bit here. 'Grass up to your knees in most places' doesn't
mean you are grazing effectively. That tall grass is left because it
isn't desirable to a cow. The desireables are probably eaten right to
the ground. I think that might be the opposition you are encountering from the powers that be.

Thats the beauty of rotational grazing. The cows have to
eat the undesirables as well. Not to say we rotational graze,
we don't. But I do understand the benefits of it. We are in our
sundown years and don't have the energy or want-to for
all the fencing required to change to rotational grazing. My hat is off to those of you that do, however.


Working with folks that we do here, you can tell by the mineral consumption how good the grass is. When the consumption is
high, the good grass is gone, even if there is grass left 'up to their
knees.' Move them to a new pasture and watch consumption
decrease.

We did a grass sample for a customer here. Looked like plenty
of grass in the pasture. Grass samples are time consuming to take
when done properly. You have to walk the hills and the low spots
to get a good sample of all the grass. That grass was 3.5% protein
and highly undigestible. The cows needed supplemented and that
is what they were trying to tell the owner.

That same grass in June in 18-19% protein, because we have
tested it then too. All that is needed in June is some dry matter.
Set out a bale or two of old hay or straw and watch your conception
rates go up. There is everything in that new grass but dry matter.
That's why cattle aren't satisfied and we say they are 'chasing grass' in
the spring. Actually they are chasing dry matter.
 
We rotational graze.. Sometimes better than others depending on our years but our place is mostly broken up intoo 70-80 acre pastures (I know, those are dry lots for some of you guys but remember, some of our ground can do 8-10 AUM per acre) and move them every 5-6 day.. Generally rotationsa re longer in spring and the grass can get away from you..

We are actually working on subdiving each pasture again down to either 40 or 20 acres... Depends on how we can work the water situation. In some fields 20 acres will be easy, in others 40 will be difficult... I actually am liking the idea to keep the calves on clean ground as much as possible during the first month of their life.....The only truely hard fields are going to be the swamp fields but I think it will be doable to break it into 30 acre ones... I we set it up right I think we can get to daily moves... or at least every other day.
 
Older genetics weren't forced to do as much as we ask our cattle to do now.

Many grass steers years ago were 3-4 years old. No one can afford to hold them that long now, and most people wouldn't be happy with the eating experience of 4 year old connective tissue.

I have experemented with older genetics, one of the legends of the Angus breed Collossal in fact. Got a beautiful looking daughter out of him, but she had less milk than any cow from any contempory sire. As a result her calves were at the bottom of the pen when weaned.

I kept the calves to see if it was just a milk deficiency, but they gained slower than their contemporaries.

I managed to get 1 daughter out of this cow that developed nicely, and sold 1 bull that looked good, both were offspring of a 3000 lb bull. I had to use the most extreme sire I could find to get any growth on her calves.

From that viewpoint, older genetics with the same grass (nutritional) management, as in previous generations, will not cut it in todays world. Changing the nutritional inputs on older genetics should yield better results, but using newer genetics on old grass systems seems to be better in terms of productivity.

I don't think anyone can afford to wean 300 pound calves anymore. That was common when the now "older" genetics were current.
 
Yikes-a one head conclusion that so 'purebred' it's scary. Like I said you fellows can sit back on a choppail and watch everybody else self destruct. There's plenty of modern cattle that will function on grass and hay only-but if they are managed like hogs where they are calved in confinement and fed like hogs they are pretty hard to find.
 
Northern Rancher said:
Yikes-a one head conclusion that so 'purebred' it's scary. Like I said you fellows can sit back on a choppail and watch everybody else self destruct. There's plenty of modern cattle that will function on grass and hay only-but if they are managed like hogs where they are calved in confinement and fed like hogs they are pretty hard to find.
Click to expand...

Northern, do you think you'd get 600 pound weaning weights using a bull born in 1962 with your exact current situation?

I don't.

I realize 1 animal from that particular sire doesn't qualify as sound science, but I used Collossal on a performance cow and got a no performance calf. Could have been a fluke, but when I could get performance from that cow with any other bull I bred her to....

I think the results would be similar with any really old genetics.

To some guys, bulls born in the 80's are old genetics. I guess it would depend on your definition.

Genetics have changed. Cattle produce bigger calves that grow faster and produce a leaner carcass, unless overfed trying to get a marbling premium that their genetics aren't capable of reaching.

My cowherd will survive with anyone's.

I agree with you that there are too many chop bucket cows around. I just don't agree we need to lose the gains we have made thinking old cattle were better.
 
Jason said:
Northern Rancher said:
Yikes-a one head conclusion that so 'purebred' it's scary. Like I said you fellows can sit back on a choppail and watch everybody else self destruct. There's plenty of modern cattle that will function on grass and hay only-but if they are managed like hogs where they are calved in confinement and fed like hogs they are pretty hard to find.
Click to expand...

Northern, do you think you'd get 600 pound weaning weights using a bull born in 1962 with your exact current situation?

I don't.

I realize 1 animal from that particular sire doesn't qualify as sound science, but I used Collossal on a performance cow and got a no performance calf. Could have been a fluke, but when I could get performance from that cow with any other bull I bred her to....

I think the results would be similar with any really old genetics.

To some guys, bulls born in the 80's are old genetics. I guess it would depend on your definition.

Genetics have changed. Cattle produce bigger calves that grow faster and produce a leaner carcass, unless overfed trying to get a marbling premium that their genetics aren't capable of reaching.

My cowherd will survive with anyone's.

I agree with you that there are too many chop bucket cows around. I just don't agree we need to lose the gains we have made thinking old cattle were better.
Click to expand...


I have never had much luck with performance cows. Maternal ones out do them on native prairie.
 
I quit bowing down to the weaning weight gods a long long time ago sunshine. It's not much more than the darling of extension agrologists and purebred breeders. the old mindset of I've got big calves I have to make money doesn't always work. By the way my last set of January calves I sold scaled off at 798 in midAugust so I've been there done that with the high performance thing.I was wondering if she was such a no milk sorry son of a gun why didn't you just cull her. The realities of commercial ranching and purebred breeding are getting furthur apart every day it seems.
 

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