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Loos Angus Cow Herd dispersal and more...

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The days of sticking your head in the manure pile and ignoring important genetic traits are long gone. In today's world a rancher needs all the genetics tools available to take his herd in the direction he desires. We need data an average daily gain, feed conversion, and weight per day of age to tailor our programs to fit the environment. We have to remember that the end product of our endeavours is BEEF. If purebred breeders were not doing the leg work on genetics who would? NR you love to bemoan the feed pail but how would the semen sell on your Hereford bull if he looked green as grass in the photo?
 
Epds are no better than the guy running the pencil... Cattle need conditioning one way or another...What works for some, doesn't work for others... $4.00 corn, well really shake things up.... Hopefully the grossly fat bulls are a thing of the past and now we will get to see moderate frame and flushed bulls. I can't wait!!!
 
When I bought him he was green as grass and he comes from an outfit that runs their cows like cows not pets. What i'm trying to get across is all the 'chop bucket' types being so paranoid about competeing with guys trying to do things on a more forage based deal-if it's so stupid just keep the mixmill greased and let them hang themselves. as long as purebred breeders are doing legwork for the right reasons and the right traits I'm all for it. As for weaning wait-I was an ROP weighman for the federal government for 10 years or so-I've sat down with alot of different producers and went over performance data on alot of calves. weaning weight is just a weight it's by no means a measure of profitability. The most successful and knowledgeable purebred breeder I've ever met told me if you can't burn all your registration papers and still make money on your outfit your doing something wrong. E.P.D's and performance testing are fine but in alot of instances they are used to strive for the maximums not optimums.
 
Katrina wrote:
Epds are no better than the guy running the pencil...
Click to expand...

Katrina, please tell me how I could fudge the numbers on data for EPD's and make it work to my advantage.

If I "accidentally" were to subtract a few lbs from my calves' BW this year, they would still have the same EPD's because of contemporary grouping...........................

Or if I were to add a few lbs to the weaning weights of my bulls the EPD's would still work out the same for the same reason........

Inquiring minds want to know.............................
 
I think the way most E'P'D's can be skewed is by contemporary groups more than by fudging weights but not sure even that would work in the long run.They are certainly changing by leaps and bounds-I remember the buzz at the A'I' company meetings when the first bull in the lineup broke a 100 lb yearling E.P.D now I see we have a bull that is at 149 lbs and well the milk thing is just crazy. Not just sure how far you can push things before the cows outgrow and outmilk the grass growth and feed budget. It's hard to market average but for some of us average can make us money.
 
I think the "fudging" can affect a young bull with low accuracy. Probably with numbers from just one breeder. Notice how much some bulls change as they get used more. Is it coincidence?
 
Big Muddy rancher said:
I think the "fudging" can affect a young bull with low accuracy. Probably with numbers from just one breeder. Notice how much some bulls change as they get used more. Is it coincidence?
Click to expand...

That's my point. It is of no advantage to "fudge" the numbers. The truth will work itself into the picture as more data is gathered.

All bulls' EPD's change as they get used more because of the "Interim" calculations he is assigned as a virgin. Some more than others probably are coincidences.

As "Accuracy" goes up, the "Possible Change" values close up also.

Day in and day out, it's a pretty foolproof system for the cattleman if used as just "One" tool in the box.
 
Most around here don't even get the papers for there bulls they buy.... I know some fudge the birthweights and weaning weigths.. Yearling weights are no better than what they are feeding... I went to a bull sale some years ago and asked the owner how much corn he was feeding and he told me 19 pounds.......Hello!!!!! That's fat cattle rations..... And the bulls looked it....... Nope I'm sorry, You find a breeder who's epds do what they say in your herd. You better stick with them, cuz there is a ton of them that don't...
 
EPD's are to be taken with a large grain of salt until the accuracies are high. The problem is the "bull of the day" gets used by many breeders on their best cows and pampered. Initially that skews the EPD's , time generally corrects the problem, but by then the cat is out of the bag. I look for some performance data to indicate how that sires progeny will perform. My experience is that the higher the performance data, the poorer the pasture will suit these rapid gainers. If all bull buyers required the same of the herd sires we would not need performance data or EPD'S. In the real world some buyers want terminal bulls, some want maternal sires, and some don't care as long as the price is right and the bull has a heartbeat.
 
What people don't realize there are a ton of registered cows and bulls that never make the bull pimp herd sire book... And these are the bulls I'm talking about... Most go from breeder to ranch and never have data collected to know what he or she is doing thus making it easy to fudge the weights......
 
NR, Hope I didn't hurt your feelings on the bull pimp thing..... I didn't mean too and I'm sorry if I did..... I just got alittle emotional and clicked sumit before my brain kicked in.......
 
katrina said:
Most around here don't even get the papers for there bulls they buy.... I know some fudge the birthweights and weaning weigths.. Yearling weights are no better than what they are feeding... I went to a bull sale some years ago and asked the owner how much corn he was feeding and he told me 19 pounds.......Hello!!!!! That's fat cattle rations..... And the bulls looked it....... Nope I'm sorry, You find a breeder who's epds do what they say in your herd. You better stick with them, cuz there is a ton of them that don't...
Click to expand...

OK. You said some fudge BW's and YW's. I'll accept that.

But how would that skew the EPD's?

Were talking EPD's here now. NOT actual data in a sale book.
 
It's nice to see some common sence about the numbers.

For Northern to call me a typical purebred breeder is truely hilarious. I totally agree with the comment about being able to burn the registration papers and still make a living. That is the way I run my entire herd, including my sale bulls. I would make money on them if sold as feeders the way I feed.

I was one of the first guys to use EPD's in Canada. I had to switch to American bloodlines because the Canadian EPD's were a joke.

What makes the EPD's work is the huge number of data sources. If enough people were to estimate the height of the Empire State Building, the average of their guesses would be pretty close.

What makes EPD's bad is when numbers are based on a few pieces of data, or when data is manipulated.

The AAA had to hold bw EPD's down to a lower than .85 acc because the fudging there was too blatant.

When I started with EPD's I would look for a set of numbers I liked. Checked the pedigree. Looked at the bull. Then I proceded to trace the EPD line as far back as I could. Remember this was all on paper at the time. If I saw a high bw line suddenly throw a low bw, I wouldn't trust it. Same for gain and milk.

There have been certian bulls not allowed in a pedigree of any of my animals no matter how good the numbers, or how nice the looks.

All that being said, extra feed makes any animal look better. Fat bulls always sell better. It is human nature. If that wasn't true do you think so many breeders would feed their bulls like they do?

I have to fight it myself. I look at my bulls and think another 100 pounds would look good. I have to be patient and remember the bulls will be just right at the time most of my customers will turn out. I am one of the few breeders I know of that has the same ration for my heifers as my bulls.

Some breeders use early weaning so they don't have to push the bulls as hard. This is very common with December sales, as the bulls are less than a year but still need to be over 1000 pounds to sell well.

Some of the best "cowboy" purebred ranches use custom feedlots to feed their bulls for sale. How are they to be viewed? As ranch raised? Or feedlot pushed? They are a blend of both, but the bulls definately have lots of feed in them.
 
It not only can be done, it is being done, Katrina.

The average lifespan of most purebred herds is 7 years.

My granddad started this one over 60 years ago, and I have the benefit of those years of knowledge that were shared with me from a young age.

I also ask a lot of questions when I see an opportunity to learn a different view.
 
No one has answered my question as to "HOW" I can skew my EPD's yet.

If fudging on the weights won't do it. And dropping out the bottom end of my calves won't do it, then HOW?
 

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