Minerals... Loose vs. Block

[PATB]

Robertmac we have a little 7 months up here called winter that poses some unique challenges-I've skipped delousing a few times-the 5 percent that need it-really need it-i'm not going to watch a cow die to prove a point. You treat the weak and cull ASAP.

I find it is easier to apply a Dewormer than to fix the barn. If the cows have a itch they will rub on anything to scratch it. They do not care if something breaks in the process. I have the same problem as NR a long period with white stuff.

 

[PATB]

There are so many ways to spend money on a cow herd. Most inputs claim a return on investment and I'm sure that most claims are true. But if you add up the the 30 pounds from the implant, the 25 pounds from the fly control, the 30 pounds from the mineral, the 30 pounds from the vaccination program, the 25 pounds from the wormer, the 20 pounds from the grazing plan, the 20 pounds from the better water supply, pretty soon we are all weaning 850 pound calves. Now we all know that doesn't happen in the real world, but in these times of cutting back on inputs where do we start. Where is the best money spent?

I would be interested to see how everyone would rank all those categories if a fella was intent on cutting back on some of his expenses. Where would mineral rank with most people. Personally I think a good mineral program and a good vaccination program go hand in hand. If you start skimping on those two that's about the time the train can go off the tracks. But then again maybe I don't know anything.

The water/grazing are long term investments that pay for years. You make improvements as the budget allows or when opportunity nocks.

The vaccination program for wean calves is didated by local market. If you do not vacinnate you cannot sell into several of the branded programs that pay upto 30 cents/lb over local auction barn.

Dewormer is required for a branded programs for wean calves. Cows are usually dewormed late fall and possible early summer depending on fly challenges.

Switch to a mineralized salt the is $17 per hunderd weight form mineral that was going to $54 hundred weight. I will review the mineral program when it is closer to calving time. I might be able to switch to a different mineral that has work in the past that is available again that goes for $40 hundred weight.

Genetics We have been cutting back on the amount of AIing and using more home raised genetics out of the top cows.

 

[Grassfarmer]

GF - you need a new supplier. Our regular custom blended mineral (all but about 75 days of the year) will run us around $600 tonne or right around 7 cents per day. Our breeding mineral runs about $900 or so and works out to about 11 cents a day for those 75 days.

Why? Is my mineral really so dear in comparison? we are spending 5.6c/day for our 75 day period and under 2c/day the rest of the year.

2. Nutrition (mineral is just part of a whole, it puts the system in balance. It cannot make up for lack of feed, it is not magic, so I feel Nutrition is a better word here.

:agree:

GF - one question. You said your mineral cost 5.6c/day and salt was 6c/day. At 11.6c/day that's $42.34/cow, not $10/cow. Did I misunderstand your numbers?

The salt was .6c/day not 6 c/day. This is for my "expensive" part of the year when they get loose mineral/salt. Rest of the year on TM salt blocks they are usually 2c/day, or less. I know one group of 90 fatter cows last winter once we were on full feed (silage/hay straw) a 20kg block lasted them close to 3 weeks. Time of year they had deep snow, feed delivered to them and plenty time to lick a salt block if they wanted to - they obviously felt they didn't need it. We usually find any feed we buy from the colony is high salt and fairly highly mineralized - I guess because of their high input farming system.

 

[RobertMac]

There are so many ways to spend money on a cow herd. Most inputs claim a return on investment and I'm sure that most claims are true. But if you add up the the 30 pounds from the implant, the 25 pounds from the fly control, the 30 pounds from the mineral, the 30 pounds from the vaccination program, the 25 pounds from the wormer, the 20 pounds from the grazing plan, the 20 pounds from the better water supply, pretty soon we are all weaning 850 pound calves. Now we all know that doesn't happen in the real world, but in these times of cutting back on inputs where do we start. Where is the best money spent?

I would be interested to see how everyone would rank all those categories if a fella was intent on cutting back on some of his expenses. Where would mineral rank with most people. Personally I think a good mineral program and a good vaccination program go hand in hand. If you start skimping on those two that's about the time the train can go off the tracks. But then again maybe I don't know anything.

Good post, Big Swede. A salesman's job is to separate you from your money. The information he uses was paid for by the company he works for. For good information, go down the road and talk to your neighbor that has been in business for 30 years.

Genetic/environment...it's the way nature works...always has, always will. Natural selection/survival of the fittest.
An animal's endocrine/nervous system's first priority is survival, then reproduction. Reproduction is the most sensitive indicator of a mismatch of genetics and environment. When you pay the salesman, you are changing your environment to fit your genetics. Proper nutrition is the most important factor in the environment.

Look at pork and poultry...they use controlled environment from start to finish. As cattlemen, we don't have that luxury...we must deal with the environment that nature gives us and match our cattle to that environment. Use a sharp pencil!

 

[RSL]

GF - apologies... I read your previous post as 6c per day for salt.

I agree with the nutrition thing (vs. mineral) as well.
Pastures should probably make the list as well. Hard to set an order. The whole system has to work together in the real world. At our place if we started focusing on one thing at the expense of another we would still have a wreck, regardless of how the list is ordered in our mind...

 

[PureCountry]

Reproduction is the most sensitive indicator of a mismatch of genetics and environment.

That line sure struck a chord with me RobertMac. I couldn't agree more. THe herd of cows we bought in February of 2008 came from vastly different feeding programs than ours, and had gone through quite an ordeal prior to coming here. They changed ownership twice in 10 months, going from Northern Alberta, lush forage and clay-based soils, to southern Saskatchewan, sandy, dry and barren, then back north to our place in Feb. last year. Since then, we've culled just over 1/3 for various things, but mostly it was open cows. That paints it pretty black and white for me - their systems just plain got the starch knocked out of 'em. I guess if we fed more in the winter and put out liquid molasses lick tanks like the owner from Northern Alberta did who raised most of 'em, we could've avoided alot of opens - maybe. Maybe alot of them were already set back by their ordeal in Southern Sask. Who knows?

All I know, is that they had to adapt to our conditions, or get culled. We bought them right so that we can draw a hard line and cull those who didn't and don't adapt. We've ended up with a pretty darn good bunch of Galloway cows, and I'm glad to see the others culled, because when we kicked the crutch of a feed wagon out from under them, they went downhill fast. Alot of them had no right to have their head on, let alone have registration papers affiliating them with a breed association.

Anyway, I think everything that's been discussed here leads to some of the same conclusions. We all need to pay attention to what works in our own eco-region. Feed and mineral that works in West-Central Alberta for GF may not work for me or someone south of the border, and vice-versa. Certainly genetics from one region to another will not always be able to adapt. I like the look of Kit Pharo's cattle alot. They look like the type we have that really work here. That said, there's no guarantee that they will. We are worlds apart. The same could be said about my breeding stock going somewhere else and failing to adapt.

For us on our ranch, we'll fix what the budget will allow, cut cost where performance will allow, and select cattle that use what's available to pay the bills; be they Galloway, Highland, Tarentaise or anything else that comes along.

Have a good day folks.

 

[RSL]

A wise post PC. It is also an interesting thing that animals brought into an environment may not do as well as the same genetics raised in that environment.

 

[PATB]

PC Good post I agree with cows that were raised in your enviroment should out preform imported genetics. I know if we do not use some sort of selenium supplement we are prone to more open cows and more challenges in calf health.

 

[Grassfarmer]

Quite agree with you PC - I'm not suggesting that what works for me will work for anyone/everyone else. Equally I won't be told by anyone in a different region/country that what I'm doing doesn't/can't work just because it wouldn't work in their area. Each to their own.

 

[Northern Rancher]

That calf catching contraption won't work in my area because I'd die of shame, my kids would laugh, my horse would buck and my dog would bite me if I trotted it out-the grass stuff makes sense though.

 

[Faster horses]

What calf catching contraption are you talking about NR?
I'm stumped...

 

[Grassfarmer]

That calf catching contraption won't work in my area because I'd die of shame, my kids would laugh, my horse would buck and my dog would bite me if I trotted it out-the grass stuff makes sense though.

Well it works on my place because I don't want to die tagging calves - had one near death experience and it was enough for a lifetime. I don't want to leave a crying family behind and find a little mocking by more cowboy orientated folks is a trade off I can live with. And before anyone tells me I shouldn't keep wild or dangerous cows I'd like to point out there is always a first time for any cow to act up.

 

[Northern Rancher]

I don't raise calves that are dopey enough to cruise up to and drop that cage over. och man burning fossil fuel just to tag a wee calvie not canny at all. if I'm scared of the cow I just rope them and lift them into the truck box-you'd be in more danger of dying from a tractor wreck with that thing.

 

[Liveoak]

I don't raise calves that are dopey enough to cruise up to and drop that cage over. och man burning fossil fuel just to tag a wee calvie not canny at all. if I'm scared of the cow I just rope them and lift them into the truck box-you'd be in more danger of dying from a tractor wreck with that thing.

I didn't see the calf catching apparatus but with the Brangus I had, it wouldn't have mattered. The momma's would just assume kill anything living that got near her calf. I've been chased around my own tractor too many times :!: On the other hand, the Angus mommas didn't really care what I did to their calves.

 

[Silver]

On the other hand, the Angus mommas didn't really care what I did to their calves.

Really? There's more miles on my odometer running in fear of my life from blacks than any other! :shock:

 

[per]

On the other hand, the Angus mommas didn't really care what I did to their calves.

Really? There's more miles on my odometer running in fear of my life from blacks than any other! :shock:

The odometer works still on that thing. :shock: :? :roll:

 

[Northern Rancher]

Our method of tagging calves usually involves roping them off horseback-then I tie them with a pigging string. While your back at your pony making up the tag the cow usually will come back and check her calf out-the persistant ones get a rap on the snout with the tail end. If I'm worried I just lead my horse up and put it between me and the cow-most cows respect a horse and stand off a bit till the calf is tagged. I'm not much of a roper or a horseman so if I can do it anybody can. Since we quit trying to defeat our cows with steel and welding rod they've become alot quieter and easier to handle-i've worked on farmer outfits A'I'ing before-most of their dreams of utopia begin with John Deere building handling equipment. I just read a quote in the Western Farmer-Stockman-"If you replace the top board on your corral more than once a year-either your genetics or stockmanship is suspect'. That one could go on the door of the fridge a precise summation of exactly how the situation is. It's amazing how even rodeo stock will get easier to handle if you do it right-can get pretty messy if you do it wrong.

 

[Grassfarmer]

Our method of tagging calves usually involves roping them off horseback-then I tie them with a pigging string. While your back at your pony making up the tag the cow usually will come back and check her calf out-the persistant ones get a rap on the snout with the tail end. If I'm worried I just lead my horse up and put it between me and the cow-most cows respect a horse and stand off a bit till the calf is tagged. I'm not much of a roper or a horseman so if I can do it anybody can. Since we quit trying to defeat our cows with steel and welding rod they've become alot quieter and easier to handle-i've worked on farmer outfits A'I'ing before-most of their dreams of utopia begin with John Deere building handling equipment. I just read a quote in the Western Farmer-Stockman-"If you replace the top board on your corral more than once a year-either your genetics or stockmanship is suspect'. That one could go on the door of the fridge a precise summation of exactly how the situation is. It's amazing how even rodeo stock will get easier to handle if you do it right-can get pretty messy if you do it wrong.

Each to their own as I said before - it seems NR has trouble painting me into the corner he wants me in though. First my calves must be so dopey to catch them with my calf catcher and then they must be so wild from poor handling they break the top rails on my corrals :lol: :lol: We have a pretty quiet herd actually and 90%+ of them I could walk up and tag with no danger. Our problem has always been bought in cows and this raises an issue that I think merits talking about. "Ranch cows" versus "farm cows". The dangerous and wild cows we have bought in have all come from ranch situations where they were likely always worked on horseback - they just do not adapt too well to my working them on foot. I guess equally my cows that are always worked on foot - with a dog on occassion but never led with a feed bag might take some adjusting to a horse powered ranch situation. Much of my cattle moving is done by calling from the front as they are used to frequent pasture moves, the rest of the time I can drive them from behind usually on my own with very little fuss. I know some bull customers have suggested that they would prefer our bulls to have encountered horses before and that is something I am keeping in mind.
I use a tagging cage for safety because I got mugged by a high headed, bought in red Angus type cow a few years back that broke my collar bone, some ribs and nicked my lung and that was with one charge through me - luckily she did not come back to finish me off or I wouldn't be here today. Laugh all you like NR but I'd rather be safe than sorry from now on.

 

[per]

If I remember correctly that cage was made of wood and therefor not rattly at all. A rancher most on here are familiar with called Soapweed uses a quad mounted side car cage to tag his calves. I drive up along side with a Polaris ranger an step out to tag calves. NR uses a horse and a piggin string. Some don't do anything which probably is the safest thing of all. To quote a very good operator here in Alberta "Each to his own".

 

[Northern Rancher]

You da man!!!