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Subsidies

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Do you consider the US cattle industry to be subsidized?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

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Texan

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This is always good for an argument. I see that some of you were tempted to get into it on Ranch Talk, but this seems like the best place to have it. That way nobody will feel like they can't say exactly what's on their mind.

Many US ranchers don't feel like they receive any subsidies. They don't like that term, I guess. That's exactly what many of the government FSA programs are, though. In my opinion, they're subsidies. It's sure not the same as welfare, but many of these programs involve direct payments either for drought disaster, conservation, etc.

I've never taken any, but I don't pass judgment on those that do. A lot of us run cattle on places that have benefitted from government money under previous owners. So most of us have benefitted, even if only indirectly. With the rising cost of inputs these days, I'll have to admit that I've sure been thinking about some of that fencing money or money for liming or other pasture improvements.

I don't know much about the CRP payments because there's not much of that in my area. I'll admit that those seem to be bordering on getting something for nothing. Any of you are welcome to tell me where I'm wrong on that.

I guess the dairy price supports are the ones that piss me off more than anything. We encourage dairy producers to overproduce by adding more and more cows. Then government or industry groups will wake up and come up with a plan to cut down on production---by killing cows. All of this cow slaughter brings the inevitable consequence of lowering prices for the rest of us.

I vote "Yes" by the way.
 
Row crop grain farmers have been getting the bulk of subsidies for years.
This in itself is subsidizing the cattle industry.

Ol' buddy I fear you have just opened a big can of worms here. :wink:
 
Gosh I'm sorry, Mike. I'm kinda new here. Did I do something wrong? Sure not my desire to stir up any ****. :lol2:
 
Texan said:
Gosh I'm sorry, Mike. I'm kinda new here. Did I do something wrong? Sure not my desire to stir up any s***. :lol2:

No problem here Texan. It's a subject that needs addressing.

I am just sitting back waiting to see the sparks fly.

I want to hear/read some comments myself. :lol:
 
You must not have heard- When they came out with the Freedom to Farm Act they did away with all subsidies and government intervention. :wink: :lol:
 
Do you consider the US cattle industry to be subsidized?
Compared to what ? The countries the US cattle man has to compete with ?
No the US cattle man is not subsidized..................good luck
 
I'm with Haymaker; compared to what? If you compare to corn, beans, cotton, and rice, I'd say "no".

I guess if you get technical, anybody who gets a tax break is getting a subsidy - and this includes oil companies. A sore spot with me is Farm Credit - every loan they make is a government subsidy - and they're subsidizing folks with upper six and seven figure net worths.
 
It depends on what you want to call a subsidy. To me any payment that encourages increased production, or even sustained production is a subsidy. The current farm program is a good example, but I think it is necessary for the American farmer and rancher to stay in business with the way things are today. The old program with it's deverted acres probably would not really be a subsidy. You earned the payment by complying with all it's requirements. It may have been a good thing back in the 1930's when 30% of our population were farmers. It leveled the field for the small producer.

Conservation programs are probably not real subsidies, even though they do increase profits, they have an overall benefit. The old soil bank and the current CRP are a farce to me. They do take land out of production but there usefullnes for conservation is really quite limited. Often times they are just a handout for the few.

When I farmed the government payment probably did not benifit me very much as I fed most of what I produced. The Great Plains Conservation program did help me change my operation, but I did not make to much use of it. I think I have got the most benefits from the drouth disaster and the livestock feed programs. I got a real nice payment in 1989 that kept me in business.

I suppose the cheap food policy of the government has kept feed prices low so has helped the cattleman. I am not even going to vote as it is really questionable.
 
Clarence said:
I suppose the cheap food policy of the government has kept feed prices low so has helped the cattleman.
Anytime the government wants a cheap price on any commodity, cattle, corn, housing, and now fuel, they subsidize it.
 
Here is my Farm Relief Bill: Every time a Southerner plants nothing on his farm but cotton year after year, and the Northerner nothing but wheat or corn, why, take a hammer and hit him twice right between the eyes. You may dent the hammer but it will do more real good than all the bills you can pass in a year.
Will Rogers
 
Texan said:
This is always good for an argument. I see that some of you were tempted to get into it on Ranch Talk, but this seems like the best place to have it. That way nobody will feel like they can't say exactly what's on their mind.

Many US ranchers don't feel like they receive any subsidies. They don't like that term, I guess. That's exactly what many of the government FSA programs are, though. In my opinion, they're subsidies. It's sure not the same as welfare, but many of these programs involve direct payments either for drought disaster, conservation, etc.

I've never taken any, but I don't pass judgment on those that do. A lot of us run cattle on places that have benefitted from government money under previous owners. So most of us have benefitted, even if only indirectly. With the rising cost of inputs these days, I'll have to admit that I've sure been thinking about some of that fencing money or money for liming or other pasture improvements.

I don't know much about the CRP payments because there's not much of that in my area. I'll admit that those seem to be bordering on getting something for nothing. Any of you are welcome to tell me where I'm wrong on that.

I guess the dairy price supports are the ones that p*** me off more than anything. We encourage dairy producers to overproduce by adding more and more cows. Then government or industry groups will wake up and come up with a plan to cut down on production---by killing cows. All of this cow slaughter brings the inevitable consequence of lowering prices for the rest of us.

I vote "Yes" by the way.

The people that don't farm or ranch gets a subsidy with cheap food. Compared to farmers, no ranching does not get a subsidy. If our cattle sell for less than cost the government doesn't kick in like on others.
 
Canada Must Drop Unfair Trade Subsidy, Conrad says
Senator Urges USDA to Reject Canadian Policy Putting U.S. Ranchers at Risk

Washington — As cattle trade resumes with Canada, Senator Kent Conrad today urged the Department of Agriculture to take action to curtail an unfair subsidy of Canadian exports to the U.S.

"I write to urge you to take immediate action regarding subsidies of Canadian cattle that put American ranchers at an unfair disadvantage," Senator Conrad writes in his letter to Secretary of Agriculture Michael Johanns.

In response to USDA actions to protect the U.S. cattle herd from "mad cow" disease, the Canadian government instituted a $200 per head subsidy payment to Canadian cattle producers. Now that the border has been re-opened to Canadian cattle and beef imports, Senator Conrad believes these payments constitute an unfair trade subsidy of Canadian exports to the U.S. While the subsidy program was suspended earlier this month, Senator Conrad is concerned with the impact of the subsidies on herds of cattle now being exported to the U.S.

"There can be little question that the ongoing effects of these subsidies are contributing to the drop in prices experienced by U.S. cattle producers since the border was re-opened," Senator Conrad writes. "I cannot fathom why USDA did not insist that the ongoing benefits of this subsidy of Canadian cattle be removed before we allowed a resumption of beef and cattle imports."

In the letter to Johanns, Senator Conrad urges the USDA to demand that Canada completely dismantle the subsidy program before any additional Canadian cattle are sold in the U.S. If Canada fails to discontinue the subsidy program, Senator Conrad wants the Department of Commerce to impose tariffs that offset the benefits to Canadian producers benefiting from the subsidies. In addition, Senator Conrad is calling for the U.S. Trade Representative to investigate whether the Canadian subsidies violate World Trade Organization rules.
 
NAFTA's RANGE WARS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


by Kent Paterson

Range wars between cattlemen are a favored Hollywood story of the Old West. On the eve of the 21st century, a modern range war is breaking out from the Mexican border in the south to the Canadian border in the north. But instead of fights over verdant spreads, today's conflict is over the import of Mexican and Canadian cattle into the United States, a commerce that preceded but picked up with the advent of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).

One strategic landmark in this trade battle is the bustling port of entry at Santa Teresa, New Mexico. Whipped through pens on the U.S.-México borderline, calves and feeder cattle can be glimpsed in large numbers passing through the crossing before being loaded onto large semi-trailers bound for the highways of the Southwest.

"Mostly the cattle we import from México come from Chihuahua state," explained Arturo García, the Santa Teresa administrator for the Chihuahua Regional Cattlemens Union. Garcia's group operates the cattle crossing. "Chihuahua has always been recognized as a livestock raising state," added García.

Since the current Santa Teresa facility opened in 1992, more than 1.7 million head of Mexican cattle have crossed the borderline, where they are then shipped to buyers and feedlots in California, Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, and Kansas. After fattening, the animals are sent to the slaughterhouse, eventually winding up in the supermarket. Although tariffs or duties on Mexican cattle do not exist as such, purchasers pay several different fees for each animal destined for the U.S. market.

According to one Santa Teresa customs broker, the fees include a United States Department of Agriculture inspection charge of $1.75 per head; a New Mexico Livestock Board fee of 35 cents per head; and the controversial beef assessement fee of $1.00 per head, used to promote beef consumption in the United States. Additionally, the United States Customs Service receives .0019 cents per animal.

For many years, the crossing of Mexican cattle at Santa Teresa and other ports of entry went along generally unnoticed. However, the trade has recently come under fire from some cattle producers in the western United States, who charge that both México and Canada are dumping cattle on the domestic market and driving down prices. For example, Imports of Mexican cattle soared from 500,000 head in 1980 to a record 1.6 million head in 1995, when Chihuahua cattlemen, besieged by a double whammy of drought and debt, sold off their herds en masse.

Last year, ranchers in North Dakota, upset at a similar surge in Canadian imports, blockaded ports of entry in the plains state. Increasingly, NAFTA livestock opponents are getting organized. Founded in 1998, the non-profit Ranchers and Cattlemens Legal Foundation (R-CALF) is spearheading much of the discontent. The group counts supporters and members in Montana, South Dakota, North Dakota, Idaho, Utah, Colorado, and New Mexico, among other places. Since last year, R-CALF has filed three anti-dumping and anti-subsidy petitions with the Washington, D.C.-based International Trade Commission (ITC) the body charged under NAFTA with hearing unfair trade complaints. In two of the cases, ITC issued rulings against R-CALF, although decisions on the appeals and new R-CALF trade data submissions are expected this summer.

In February, the ITC threw out the Mexican anti-dumping petition, but R-CALF appealed the case to U.S. District Court in New York state. Then, in early May, the ITC issued a preliminary ruling against R-CALF's Canadian anti-subsidy petition, declaring that Canada's barley subsidy utiliized in cattle production was insignificant. R-CALF has until August 1 to produce its own data in an attempt to get ITC to change its mind. In the meantime, it is also anticipated that the trade agency will decide on the Canadian anti-dumping petition later this summer.

Colorado rancher Kathleen Sullivan Kelley, R-CALF vice-president, claimed that research by her organization revealed that Canadian cattle were being sold in the U.S. at $200 dollars per head below the cost of production, while Mexican cattle were underselling for as much as $400 per head. "It's a good thing for the cattle feeders," said Sullivan Kelley, "but essentially it really pushes the domestic producer out of the cattle feeding market, especially New Mexico and Texas and that region."

Figures from the New Mexico Agricultural Statistics Service show that the average price for beef cattle in the state dropped from 68 cents a pound in 1993 to 59 and-a-half cents a pound in 1997. Prices paid for calves, cows, steers, and heifers all decreased during the same period.

With the removal of tariffs and duties under NAFTA, Sullivan Kelley said one recourse left for ranchers is legal action. "The only thing they left us were anti-dumping capabilities," added the R-CALF spokeswoman, who said the purpose of her group's complaints is to force a government investigation, and possible retaliatory trade action. "If the (imports) were found to be illegal and excessive, and damages were found, we'd ask that appropriate tariffs and duties be
placed," said Sullivan Kelly.

Cattle country is divided on the import issue. Importer Carl Frazier, who ranches near Columbus, New Mexico, disagreed with allegations that Mexican cattle are having a negative effect on the business. Large numbers of Mexican livestock, he noted, have been crossing into the U.S. for years, well before NAFTA or recent price drops. Other reasons, he contended, are to blame for the price downturn, including "overproduction" and the waning popularity of beef. The average size of a steer, he pointed out, has increased about 200 pounds recent years.

"People from the northern states are complaining about the Mexican imports and the Canadian imports, but the imports, I feel, are a small fator in the pricing of cattle," said Frazier. "And the consumer is not using and we're not exporting any more beef than we did 10 years ago."

On the other hand, opined Frazier, the Mexican cattle imports are a boost to the border economy. Trucking and fuel companies are benefitting from the commerce. "There's a lot of people making money out of this," he claimed.

An earlier, 1996 report by the Congressional Research Service (CRS) minimized the effect of NAFTA on cattle prices, blaming instead high grain prices for feed and the existence of a domestic cattle oversupply. According to the report, the size of the U.S. cattle herd increased from about 96 million head in 1990 to 104 million head in 1996.

The CRS report was inconclusive about the impact of another recent phenomenon on low cattle prices: concentration of feedlot and slaughter facility ownership. The government research agency noted that three companies-Iowa Beef Processors, Con Agra and Excel (Cargill)-controlled 81 percent of cattle slaughter in the United States by 1994. Other major firms steering the feed and slaughter gravy train included Beef America, Continental Grain, and Cactus Feeders.

"If there's an oversupply and we're producing heavier cattle, then why do we need imports at all?" questioned ranching activist Sullivan Kelley. She maintainted that numbers compiled by R-CALF now show that the U.S. is importing nearly one-fifth of its cattle and beef consumption. R-CALF- hired economists, she continued, are certain the imports are having repercussions on domestic prices. "To say that 17.6 percent of our total domestic consumption doesn't have an impact on price, I think, is either being blind or naive," concluded Sullivan Kelley.

As NAFTA's range wars extend from border ports of entry to East Coast courtrooms and suites, the northern Mexican livestock export economy faces an uncertain future from other enemies. Still battered by dry climatic conditions, Chihuahua ranchers are slated to receive government financial assistance this summer so they can purchase crtically-needed feed supplies. Lack of water is forcing ranchers to turn to the market instead of pasture land. And quoted in the Diario de Chihuahua newspaper, Manuel Payan, the new president of the Chihuahua Regional Cattlemens Union, said the majority of his organization's almost 7,000 members remain burdened with overdue loans, a legacy of the 1994 peso crisis. Payan estimated that Chihuahua's livestock herd has been reduced by nearly two-thirds in the last ten years.
 
Hay Maker when did Canada and Mexico become part of the USA :lol: Are you trying to say that the cattle producers in this country that buy these cattle are getting a subsidy? Are you implying that someone is forcing people to take these non native cattle and compete against you?
 
mwj said:
Hay Maker when did Canada and Mexico become part of the USA :lol: Are you trying to say that the cattle producers in this country that buy these cattle are getting a subsidy? Are you implying that someone is forcing people to take these non native cattle and compete against you?

Read my reply to Texan's post,"is the US cattle industry heavily subsidiized" ? compared to what ? Canada ? Mexico ? No it is not. What makes you think cattle "producers" in this country are buying imported cattle ? try feeders...........Im not implying,IM stating facts,the US cattle industry is not heavily subsidized compared to our competition...........good luck
PS I believe if you check you will find canada & Mexico are not part of the *US* :wink:
 
Texan said:
This is always good for an argument. I see that some of you were tempted to get into it on Ranch Talk, but this seems like the best place to have it. That way nobody will feel like they can't say exactly what's on their mind.

Many US ranchers don't feel like they receive any subsidies. They don't like that term, I guess. That's exactly what many of the government FSA programs are, though. In my opinion, they're subsidies. It's sure not the same as welfare, but many of these programs involve direct payments either for drought disaster, conservation, etc.

I've never taken any, but I don't pass judgment on those that do. A lot of us run cattle on places that have benefitted from government money under previous owners. So most of us have benefitted, even if only indirectly. With the rising cost of inputs these days, I'll have to admit that I've sure been thinking about some of that fencing money or money for liming or other pasture improvements.

I don't know much about the CRP payments because there's not much of that in my area. I'll admit that those seem to be bordering on getting something for nothing. Any of you are welcome to tell me where I'm wrong on that.

I guess the dairy price supports are the ones that p*** me off more than anything. We encourage dairy producers to overproduce by adding more and more cows. Then government or industry groups will wake up and come up with a plan to cut down on production---by killing cows. All of this cow slaughter brings the inevitable consequence of lowering prices for the rest of us.

I vote "Yes" by the way.

Hay Maker I may be a little slow this am but I see nothing in the org. post about countries other than the US or the amount of the subs. We are talking about US producers and yes we are subsidised wether we admit to it or not. :???:
 
mwj said:
Texan said:
This is always good for an argument. I see that some of you were tempted to get into it on Ranch Talk, but this seems like the best place to have it. That way nobody will feel like they can't say exactly what's on their mind.

Many US ranchers don't feel like they receive any subsidies. They don't like that term, I guess. That's exactly what many of the government FSA programs are, though. In my opinion, they're subsidies. It's sure not the same as welfare, but many of these programs involve direct payments either for drought disaster, conservation, etc.

I've never taken any, but I don't pass judgment on those that do. A lot of us run cattle on places that have benefitted from government money under previous owners. So most of us have benefitted, even if only indirectly. With the rising cost of inputs these days, I'll have to admit that I've sure been thinking about some of that fencing money or money for liming or other pasture improvements.

I don't know much about the CRP payments because there's not much of that in my area. I'll admit that those seem to be bordering on getting something for nothing. Any of you are welcome to tell me where I'm wrong on that.

I guess the dairy price supports are the ones that p*** me off more than anything. We encourage dairy producers to overproduce by adding more and more cows. Then government or industry groups will wake up and come up with a plan to cut down on production---by killing cows. All of this cow slaughter brings the inevitable consequence of lowering prices for the rest of us.

I vote "Yes" by the way.

Hay Maker I may be a little slow this am but I see nothing in the org. post about countries other than the US or the amount of the subs. We are talking about US producers and yes we are subsidised wether we admit to it or not. :???:

Well it's a damn good thing we are,as the folks you compete with for comsumer dollars,are heavily subsidized.
I have never recieved a dollar in subsidies that I know of,and yes I have heard all the stories,even the one about farm land/ag exemptions,taxes etc. I am not denying that there are some subsidies out there,lets see you get some of them,its a fact 90% of the money goes to 10% of the people .
You wanna talk about subsidies start looking at corporate America. your every day farmer/rancher gets little to nothing in the way of subsidies.

PS Yes you may be a lil slow cuz what I said was "read my reply"I know what Texan was askin :wink:
 
Haymaker, look closely at your tax bill, then ask what it would be if you didn't have cattle.

An ag exemption is a subsidy.

In Canada land is taxed based on valuation alone. There are no ag exemptions.

Your article of a one time $200 a head payment for Canadians was during BSE, was only for heifers and 30% of them at that. We weren't allowed to sell them for slaughter during that time, it was a holdback payment, really no different than the drought disaster payment some of you are looking at.

Saying Canada has extensive subsidies in any ag sector is justification for the US subsidies is ludicris.
 
Jason said:
Haymaker, look closely at your tax bill, then ask what it would be if you didn't have cattle.

An ag exemption is a subsidy.

In Canada land is taxed based on valuation alone. There are no ag exemptions.

Your article of a one time $200 a head payment for Canadians was during BSE, was only for heifers and 30% of them at that. We weren't allowed to sell them for slaughter during that time, it was a holdback payment, really no different than the drought disaster payment some of you are looking at.

Saying Canada has extensive subsidies in any ag sector is justification for the US subsidies is ludicris.

Well,we are down to the "definition"of subsidy,is an ag exemption a subsidy or a tax reduction,because its just money, are they one and the same?
canada land may very well be based on value,what you fail to mention is the "value" works out to be less than my ag exemption ?..............good luck
 
Every man, woman and child is subsidized, in some way, by the government.

The Farm Bill is mostly spent on Food Stamps.

If they didn't have it, they couldn't buy food, is the thinking.

And if it wasn't part of it, the ag states reps, couldn't get the city reps to vote for it, is what i've been told.

Makes sense to me.

Is it right, danged if i know.

Why is it OK to pay someone in a town or outlying area, when they are hurt by nature, as in fire or flood, but it's not OK, to help people who are hurt by a drought?

Those who are hurt by any disaster, need to have money to spend to keep their local economies going. Maybe some on here don't remember the 30's or what happened to the ecomomy back then.

I am not in favor of subsidies, but as one guy told me, "Never feel bad about taking any money from the government for farm or ranch programs. They've took so much away from us over the years, that it's the least they can do."

Sad, but probably true.

I'll bet every farmer or rancher has been subsidized at some point.

The sad part is, WE are the government and it's our money!

:mad:

Ever hear of "robbing Peter to pay Paul"? :roll:
 

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