Kit shows the way ahead
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BRG
Well-known member
Their are alot of things that Kit says that I agree with. He really makes you think outside the box, and with this day and age of overall expenses, we all need to do that. I am just not convinced that these smaller framed cattle are the way to go. (under 5 frame) at least not in our area. The buyer discounts the heck out of ya if you do. Now if you sell yearlings it is a bit different, but if you sell yearlings, then you have to cut back on the # of cows you run or find extra grass as the yearlings will use alot of it.
Along with the extra $ you get from the larger cull cow, discounts you get (in our area) for trying to sell smaller framed cattle, something that everyone seems to forget is the extra bull power you will need to have. If you can run an extra 25 cows for every 100 head on the same land due to smaller cows that are suppose to eat less, then you will need another bull. If you are using his bulls that is another $3000 or more expense.
Add all these things up, and I am not sure if it would work, again at least with our area and markets.
Just my thoughts.
Along with the extra $ you get from the larger cull cow, discounts you get (in our area) for trying to sell smaller framed cattle, something that everyone seems to forget is the extra bull power you will need to have. If you can run an extra 25 cows for every 100 head on the same land due to smaller cows that are suppose to eat less, then you will need another bull. If you are using his bulls that is another $3000 or more expense.
Add all these things up, and I am not sure if it would work, again at least with our area and markets.
Just my thoughts.
RobertMac
Well-known member
How much does 6 inches of cannon bone weigh? How well does frame score define a cow or calf?
Dylan, BRG...are these sub-frame 4 calves that are taking a hit, well muscled short calves or narrow butt, pot bellied dinks?
Dylan, BRG...are these sub-frame 4 calves that are taking a hit, well muscled short calves or narrow butt, pot bellied dinks?
BRG
Well-known member
RobertMac said:
What we see are anything under 5 frame. I wouldn't sall them pot bellied dinks, some are pretty good calves, but the buyers stay away and stay away pretty hard.
This and the other Pharo post are pretty interesting. I tend to think of "type" before I think of "size". Everyone's system will, if used long and consistently enough, result in reasonably adapted cows. We are grazing until mid to late January most years, then grazing swaths for the rest of the winter, unless drought conditions intervene like this year, and then going back out on grass. Because of our resources our cows are smaller than the neighbours', we calve later, and we sell a different product at a different time of year.
They envy our lack of work ethic
and I envy the fact that they can spread any equipment costs over multiple enterprises like grain farming and cattle.
We try to feed rolled up feed to our cows for less than 45 days a year, but sometimes have to adapt to things. Many years we actually feed more when the snow is gone to help the grass out, than we do in the wintertime.
I think it would be difficult to sell frame 4 feeder cattle here, but I can use framier SM bulls on my smaller AN cows and have some of both worlds working for me. Does it work for everyone? Only if they have the same land location and resource and skill set and training, etc.... Can I learn and adapt (steal) things from others? Sure can.
We got back some lease cows that were sent out as mature cows (5 years+) into a very different system than ours. I would swear that those cattle actually grew, because they are a lot bigger than their contemporaries when we got them home. Maybe that system selects form for bigger cows?
Also, for the record, the very best cow is ALWAYS the one that's paid for and raising a calf...
They envy our lack of work ethic
and I envy the fact that they can spread any equipment costs over multiple enterprises like grain farming and cattle.We try to feed rolled up feed to our cows for less than 45 days a year, but sometimes have to adapt to things. Many years we actually feed more when the snow is gone to help the grass out, than we do in the wintertime.
I think it would be difficult to sell frame 4 feeder cattle here, but I can use framier SM bulls on my smaller AN cows and have some of both worlds working for me. Does it work for everyone? Only if they have the same land location and resource and skill set and training, etc.... Can I learn and adapt (steal) things from others? Sure can.
We got back some lease cows that were sent out as mature cows (5 years+) into a very different system than ours. I would swear that those cattle actually grew, because they are a lot bigger than their contemporaries when we got them home. Maybe that system selects form for bigger cows?
Also, for the record, the very best cow is ALWAYS the one that's paid for and raising a calf...
floyd
Well-known member
Well, if everyone went to smaller framed cattle in your area what would the buyer do?
I understand you are not interested in going broke finding out so maybe there is a way to feel the buyer out on this concept.
Wonder what your neighbors would think of this approach?
I am not one to worry much what neighbors do & maybe you are the same way.
Maybe this is one of those thinking outside the box things?
I understand you are not interested in going broke finding out so maybe there is a way to feel the buyer out on this concept.
Wonder what your neighbors would think of this approach?
I am not one to worry much what neighbors do & maybe you are the same way.
Maybe this is one of those thinking outside the box things?
RobertMac
Well-known member
Badlands said:The real answer to your question would depend on ALL of the economic considerations, RobertMac, cost of input (value of pasture rent) and value of output, coupled with cost of replacement in the herd.
Well, yes...all cost are specific to each ranch/farm even if it is just across a turn-row.
My grandpa's system does this better than calving on peak forage. Go back and review when a cow's requirements, and thus intake, are at their highest. It happens about 3 months after calving.
Does not a cows nutritional requirements dramatically increase at calving?
The exact matching can vary as you pointed out in your first point. What effects the bottom line is that the majority of the increase in nutritional requirements are being met with natural accruing resources rather than bought resources.
Forage quantity relative to quality is maximized about June 20 - July 5 in my area of eastern MT. That puts calving about April 1 - 15. Green grass usually starts about April 15 - 20.
Your Grandpa backs up one of Kit's main points...it is cheaper to winter a dry cow than a lactating cow. Careful, don't want people to think you are promoting a Pharoism! :wink:
BCS at calving is important, yes, but some of that depends on availability of forage after calving along with environmental conditions. Calving too early means they can't gain enough condition back to breed well. Calving too late, as on peak grass, is a waste of nutrients. Cows are fat, but what was the point? They got fat on peak grass, only to have to use the fat off their back to feed the calf and breed on downward spiraling forage quality. Why not calve right before or at the fist flush of grass, and have the cows use what fat is left on their back, while ramping up metabolism and milk production, while preparing to breed? Additionally, calves are able to use the summer grass better as they are becoming functional ruminants earlier, utilizing higher quality grass than if they were born later.
"They got fat on peak grass, only to have to use the fat off their back to feed the calf and breed..." Is this not what a cow is suppose to do?
I've read a lot of research that Dr. Diven presented that showed BCS at calving to be one of the most important factors in breed back. The question is where does the BCS come...from bought resources or natural resources from the land? Dr. Diven made the point to me that a cow is capable of gaining 3#/day on spring forage...give the cow a couple weeks to a month on spring forage and she regains any lost condition, is gaining weight, and has good BCS at calving. To make this work will require changing operating methods...IT IS THE SUGGESTION OF CHANGE THAT MAKES PEOPLE DISLIKE KIT!
Badlands
Big Swede
Well-known member
The so called "experts" told Kit he couldn't sell 50 bulls a year and would be out of business in 5 years. What would be your reaction is someone told you that about a system that you knew would work? Don't you think you would love to prove the other purebred breeders wrong? According to his last newsletter he has been in business 20 years and is selling 700-800 bulls a year. I have never been to his sale or bought one of his bulls, but I consider this guy a great American entrepreneur. Some people consider Rush Limbaugh to be to brash and cocky too, but if you have an open mind you might just learn something.
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
You can add at least a frame score by how you handle your replacement heifers. We retain ownership on most of our calves and frame really doesn't define how an animal performs. I had a major buyer try and loweball my grass heifers tried to tell me they'd finish under a 1,000 lbs-I think they closed out a touch under 1300-mind you they weren't frame 4's but they suire weren't 7's either. Just for jokes we all could frame score our replacement heifers sand post them-it might be interesting to actually see where we all sit. If Kit is such an idiot I don't understand why all you breeders doing it 'right' don't let him hanfg himself with his own rope. I know one thing for certain I'd gamble my bull dollars on one of his cattle long before a 'children of the corn-1,000 pound weaning weeight Angus'. As my Dad would of said 'that's about as practical as tits on a boar'. You can love or leave Kit Pharo that's your own decisdion but I don't think he's going away any time soon.
RobertMac
Well-known member
Kit is presenting nothing new...what he is presenting is the way the cattle industry was run before cheap corn.Big Swede said:
Two things to consider...
What is going to happen to your bottom line if corn goes to $4-6.00 and stays there?
Global food corporations are fast becoming the bottle neck(if they aren't already there) of the food supply chain...that puts all of us in direct competition with producers all over the globe. How well will you be able to compete?
People with closed minds let other define Rush for them...same with Kit!
Dylan Biggs
Well-known member
RobertMac said:
Well muscled tanks. Good Question.
We are getting to the point where for us personally it is irrelevant because of our own marketing. But if you are selling into the commodity market it is a reality. Good quality and very good quality feeders under frame 4 take a discount even when we sold them scaled out of the yard. The other way to put it is the premiums up here on feeder cattle are paid on frame 5.5 t0 6.5 frame exotic british cross. Especially the buckskin calves.
High Plains
Well-known member
I'd say Pharo Cattle is now sitting back and enjoying the fruits of their marketing plan. No longer will they need to do two meetings a week covering all 50 states, Canada and Mexico. Ranchers.net will take care of the marketing now and it's on the house!!
Doesn't matter what people say, good or bad, as long as they are talking about you. I can't remember who first said that, but there's a good bit of truth in it.
HP
Doesn't matter what people say, good or bad, as long as they are talking about you. I can't remember who first said that, but there's a good bit of truth in it.
HP
Badlands
Well-known member
People in my area never calved in June or even late May as a habit. Maybe 1st of May, but not much later. Of course back then the bulls were run year round so there wasn't really a "start" date, but from what I can glean, the calving really got rolling by late April.
I would rather use the Yellowstone and Turner bison as a calving model than deer, since they are closer to the gestation and nutrient requirements of cattle.
They start calving in mid-late April and are done by late May in general. I think they are about the same time in SD at that preserve, although they might be a few says earlier. Interesting, since SD is closer to CO, than is MT. Kinda throws suspicion on the credibility and usefulness of Diven's day-length model, in my opinion. Also interesting to see what information people choose to ignore when making their decisions. "Deer fawn in late-May, so we should calve in June; buffalo calve in late April and early May, but we won't do it that way." :wink:
No matter, really. I'm not too worried about it. I know when and why I calve. It is sensible to me. Not too worried about convincing anyone else that I am right, or that they need to do it my way.
Badlands
andybob
Well-known member
I have recently read "Time to Change" by Chip Hines, Kits' long time friend and mentor, it gives an insight into the reasoning behind the changes which were made to the Pharo breeding program.
Kit also links with other "out of the box" thinkers such as Alan Savory with his Holistic management courses, a concept I have followed for many years back in Rhodesia, and have applied the principles since both in the USA and UK.
Kit also links with other "out of the box" thinkers such as Alan Savory with his Holistic management courses, a concept I have followed for many years back in Rhodesia, and have applied the principles since both in the USA and UK.
I've read through all 10 pages of this thread. Many facets of the industry have been discussed. I'm going to open an entirely new one: The beef check off. We sell calves and are charged $1 per head, when the calf brings whatever the market allows. Purebred breeders sell an animal for $1,000 to
$156,000 and they pay $1 on the sale of that animal. Seems to me like it should be a percentage. Anyone else ever thought about this?
$156,000 and they pay $1 on the sale of that animal. Seems to me like it should be a percentage. Anyone else ever thought about this?
nortexsook
Well-known member
It is a stupid system.
My thought is it needs to be gotten rid of in its entirety.
My thought is it needs to be gotten rid of in its entirety.
gcreekrch
Well-known member
Regardless of what the animal is sold for it is still one animal. :wink: