Minerals... Loose vs. Block

[Northern Rancher]

One of the funniest things I ever heard was an old pasture manager-my boss-and a neighbor saw a tractor mounted maternity cage and decided that it was the cats meow so they proceeded to get one manufactured. Lo and behold a heifer was calving and they managed to Macgyver the thing over top of her. The neighbor crawled in and was performing some arm work-she got up and bumped into the side just enough to run the all steel deal into an electric fence. You can imagine the results. I'll stand by the dopey calf thing. It's not what you handle them with it's how you handle them-the best EXT's I've ever seen were rounded up with winchester and remington. Like I said if you keep on welding a better mousetrap your treating symptoms not the problem-that stands from my place to anybody's place-weld up a good loading chute-buy a calendar to know when the sale is and put both to good use.

 

[Grassfarmer]

One of the funniest things I ever heard was an old pasture manager-my boss-and a neighbor saw a tractor mounted maternity cage and decided that it was the cats meow so they proceeded to get one manufactured. Lo and behold a heifer was calving and they managed to Macgyver the thing over top of her. The neighbor crawled in and was performing some arm work-she got up and bumped into the side just enough to run the all steel deal into an electric fence. You can imagine the results. I'll stand by the dopey calf thing. It's not what you handle them with it's how you handle them-the best EXT's I've ever seen were rounded up with winchester and remington. Like I said if you keep on welding a better mousetrap your treating symptoms not the problem-that stands from my place to anybody's place-weld up a good loading chute-buy a calendar to know when the sale is and put both to good use.

All this talk of shooting things it seems you are the guy with the wild cattle problems not me. Never been an issue on my place other than with bought in horsed, "ranch cattle" as I said.

 

[RSL]

This is a pretty good post. The importance of iron as a mineral...
Actually I can respect both approaches. We ranch run cows, but we also move cows a lot on pasture, so use a blend of NR/GF methods. We use DNA at weaning to sort things out, so don't bother tagging calves at birth. It is for us the simplest, laziest way we can do things at our place.
If we have a problem at calving we often use a horse and rope to sort things out.
I do try to do all our AI using a chute. :lol:
If we were out on foot or corral calving, I would want way quieter cows, but that said cows that handled in that environment are often quieter in that situation (with the odd EXTeption).
A combination of genetics and environment...

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

I say we get a mud pit and put grassfarmer and Nr in it to wrassle then see who's method works the best. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[per]

Maybe we could allow them to be represented in the mud pit by more photogenic types. Since RSL is kinda a hybrid of the 2 systems he could be the ref.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Maybe we could allow them to be represented in the mud pit by more photogenic types. Since RSL is kinda a hybrid of the 2 systems he could be the ref.

If we are getting more"Photogenic" types I might want to be the ref. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Maybe more fitting would be make it a big vat of oatmeal. :wink:

 

[Northern Rancher]

Well old GF was trying to strike an arc I'd hog tie and bushwhack him. I get a calf catcher too but I'd have to buy a tractor first lol.

 

[RSL]

Maybe we could allow them to be represented in the mud pit by more photogenic types. Since RSL is kinda a hybrid of the 2 systems he could be the ref.

If we are getting more"Photogenic" types I might want to be the ref. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Maybe more fitting would be make it a big vat of oatmeal. :wink:

I am about halfway in between. We can host the event here, and maybe even get a pay per view. I also know a good bagpipe player.

 

[gcreekrch]

Maybe we could allow them to be represented in the mud pit by more photogenic types. Since RSL is kinda a hybrid of the 2 systems he could be the ref.

If we are getting more"Photogenic" types I might want to be the ref. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Maybe more fitting would be make it a big vat of oatmeal. :wink:

I am about halfway in between. We can host the event here, and maybe even get a pay per view. I also know a good bagpipe player.

Wouldn't it be simpler to give them a penny to fight over?

The winner would have a mile of copper wire when they were done. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[PureCountry]

I've been thinking more and more about this "Supplementing vs. Adaptation" thing, and I guess you could say I had an epipheny.......in other words, a light bulb came on. I am all in favor of making genetics adapt, and agree with RobertMac and others that if we supplement too much, we are masking genetic flaws. However, if we look at the model of Mother Nature, how do wild animals obtain their necessary nutrient requirements? They cover many miles of terrain, rough or otherwise, seeking out water, diverse grazing, natural salt or mineral licks, and of course, farmer's crops.

How can I possibly expect my domesticated beef animals, or any other livestock under my care, to obtain what they need all on their own, when my Holistic Grazing Plan keeps them confined on parcels that most likely do not contain those ingredients for health in a balanced diet? Also, how can I possibly expect them to ADAPT to my ranch's production, when they are never on any particular paddock for more than a few days at a time, and our paddocks range from blow sand on one end of the ranch, to pockets of rich lowland and/or gumbo in other areas?

I'll leave y'all with that one to chew on. :wink:

 

[Northern Rancher]

That's exactly what I was alluding too many posts ago-add to it calving out of sync-using genetics that don't suit the country. There's a big salt lick where we elk hunt it's pretty easy for them to go partake as needed-not so easy for our cattle. I was pondering parasite resistance-what is better to have a fat cow with flies on her or a thin cow with none. Up here if you ignore the realities of our enviroment it will bite you in the ash some alot harder than others. You can be the third generation on the same ranch and you still learn something new every day and the fourth generation will go through the same learning curve-hopefully with a few more peaks and alot less valleys. Our experiment with the new breed was pretty much a deep ravine only got one or two calves and took a big hit when we canned him but live and learn-the one calf is a good one though lol.

 

[Liveoak]

How can I possibly expect my domesticated beef animals, or any other livestock under my care, to obtain what they need all on their own, when my Holistic Grazing Plan keeps them confined on parcels that most likely do not contain those ingredients for health in a balanced diet? Also, how can I possibly expect them to ADAPT to my ranch's production, when they are never on any particular paddock for more than a few days at a time, and our paddocks range from blow sand on one end of the ranch, to pockets of rich lowland and/or gumbo in other areas?

I'll leave y'all with that one to chew on. :wink:

Logic says that your cattle should get the nutrients they need regardless of the the soil makeup because 1. your moving them from paddock to paddock -> different nutrients in each paddock = balance 2. manure is being dropped - fertilization - >that came from a different paddock, which contained different nutrients = grass promotion in the paddock.

Of course, all of this assumes that the grass in each paddock was grown on properly prepared soil, with the proper grass, to begin with. And assumes that a nutrient test is being performed on the grass in each paddock at least once a year.

Additionally, if the conditions of each paddock are managed and a given cow still does not perform well, then you have immediatley identified non-efficient genetics, for your operation, which should result in culling her.

 

[PureCountry]

Logic says that your cattle should get the nutrients they need regardless of the the soil makeup because 1. your moving them from paddock to paddock -> different nutrients in each paddock = balance 2. manure is being dropped - fertilization - >that came from a different paddock, which contained different nutrients = grass promotion in the paddock.

Of course, all of this assumes that the grass in each paddock was grown on properly prepared soil, with the proper grass, to begin with. And assumes that a nutrient test is being performed on the grass in each paddock at least once a year.

Additionally, if the conditions of each paddock are managed and a given cow still does not perform well, then you have immediatley identified non-efficient genetics, for your operation, which should result in culling her.

That's not logic in my opinion - that's just theory. I agree with you that nutrients do get transferred from one paddock to another, that's been going on for eons before we threw domesticated animals in the mix. Does that automatically mean that there is "balance"? Hell no. There are way too many variables to make such a generalized statement.

And to assume properly prepared soil and "proper" grass, what does that mean Liveoak? I said in my post that we have huge variation from one paddock to another on our ranch. Obviously if certain cows are not performing well while their contemporaries are, they Black List themselves.

 

[PATB]

I've been thinking more and more about this "Supplementing vs. Adaptation" thing, and I guess you could say I had an epipheny.......in other words, a light bulb came on. I am all in favor of making genetics adapt, and agree with RobertMac and others that if we supplement too much, we are masking genetic flaws. However, if we look at the model of Mother Nature, how do wild animals obtain their necessary nutrient requirements? They cover many miles of terrain, rough or otherwise, seeking out water, diverse grazing, natural salt or mineral licks, and of course, farmer's crops.

How can I possibly expect my domesticated beef animals, or any other livestock under my care, to obtain what they need all on their own, when my Holistic Grazing Plan keeps them confined on parcels that most likely do not contain those ingredients for health in a balanced diet? Also, how can I possibly expect them to ADAPT to my ranch's production, when they are never on any particular paddock for more than a few days at a time, and our paddocks range from blow sand on one end of the ranch, to pockets of rich lowland and/or gumbo in other areas?

I'll leave y'all with that one to chew on. :wink:

How about a combination of both. It is a given that I will need to supplement with some type of selenium and minerals. I prefer animals that use a basic mineralized salt that is cheap versus some of the more expensive mineral mixes.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

I've been thinking more and more about this "Supplementing vs. Adaptation" thing, and I guess you could say I had an epipheny.......in other words, a light bulb came on. I am all in favor of making genetics adapt, and agree with RobertMac and others that if we supplement too much, we are masking genetic flaws. However, if we look at the model of Mother Nature, how do wild animals obtain their necessary nutrient requirements? They cover many miles of terrain, rough or otherwise, seeking out water, diverse grazing, natural salt or mineral licks, and of course, farmer's crops.

How can I possibly expect my domesticated beef animals, or any other livestock under my care, to obtain what they need all on their own, when my Holistic Grazing Plan keeps them confined on parcels that most likely do not contain those ingredients for health in a balanced diet? Also, how can I possibly expect them to ADAPT to my ranch's production, when they are never on any particular paddock for more than a few days at a time, and our paddocks range from blow sand on one end of the ranch, to pockets of rich lowland and/or gumbo in other areas?

I'll leave y'all with that one to chew on. :wink:

How about a combination of both. It is a given that I will need to supplement with some type of selenium and minerals. I prefer animals that use a basic mineralized salt that is cheap versus some of the more expensive mineral mixes.

If your land is lacking in certain nutrients wouldn't the cattle perform to what they are receiving. Eventually cattle will be lacking in whatever the feed is lacking. Cattle may adapt to their environment but will they perform as well as they should or could?

 

[Liveoak]

Logic says that your cattle should get the nutrients they need regardless of the the soil makeup because 1. your moving them from paddock to paddock -> different nutrients in each paddock = balance 2. manure is being dropped - fertilization - >that came from a different paddock, which contained different nutrients = grass promotion in the paddock.

Of course, all of this assumes that the grass in each paddock was grown on properly prepared soil, with the proper grass, to begin with. And assumes that a nutrient test is being performed on the grass in each paddock at least once a year.

Additionally, if the conditions of each paddock are managed and a given cow still does not perform well, then you have immediatley identified non-efficient genetics, for your operation, which should result in culling her.

That's not logic in my opinion - that's just theory. I agree with you that nutrients do get transferred from one paddock to another, that's been going on for eons before we threw domesticated animals in the mix. Does that automatically mean that there is "balance"? Hell no. There are way too many variables to make such a generalized statement.

And to assume properly prepared soil and "proper" grass, what does that mean Liveoak? I said in my post that we have huge variation from one paddock to another on our ranch. Obviously if certain cows are not performing well while their contemporaries are, they Black List themselves.

Let's back up. You have a "huge" variation in soils in various paddocks. Why? What prevents you from making the soil right in each paddock? Make the amendments, as per soil test to generate the grass/nutrients needed. Then each paddock is pretty much the same in nutrient value. However, if you choose not to do that, then there still may be a balance if the cattle are being turned into each paddock with some regularity. Do you eat the same thing every single night? Do you eat a variation? Do you eat a balanced nutrient diet if viewed over the period of a month? O.k.. so the cattle may also be getting a balance. Maybe one paddock is higher in XXX than another, while yet another is higher in YYYY,= balance. But you'll never know unless you test. Without testing, what good is holier than thou holistic? The only answer then, is keeping those cows that can subsist on rocks and crap and just cull all the others. If thats what "holistic" means to you then go for it! If a person chooses not to do anything to the soil and attempts to just raise cattle on whatever happens to be there then, it all comes down to breed and genetics. What are you raising?

 

[PureCountry]

Not sure how many of my past posts you've ever read before jumping on board, but I'm usually the resident soil quack around here, telling everyone that the soil comes first. Our ranch has several goals, and one of the main ones is improving soil across the entire ranch. It's always at the heart of any decision we make as far as land management/planning.

That said, you have no idea what it would cost me to amend my paddocks and have them all the same. I'd have to borrow alot of money to do that, since the Ca requirements alone would be $240-500/acre, not to mention Mag, P, K, Na and a myriad of other ingredients to keep it all in balance. Who in the Hell can afford to do that????? You talk about it as though it's as easy as the snap of your fingers. If it is, I'd like you to post us all some pictures of the Pearly Gates, and come on, give us a hint, is Elvis up there or not?

Variation in paddocks?? Elementary Dear Watson. 4500 acres of land bordering a wide river basin, ranging from high hills and canyons, to plateaus with somewhat-rich black sand, to lowland areas with natural springs and sinkholes. Some areas run 4% organic matter, others 0.5%. Some areas we've tested run 45,000lbs per acre Ca, and another test 100yds away shows 8,000lbs per acre Ca. Yes, yes, we've heard of soil testing in the Great White North. We've just been busy mastering igloos, the luge, and of course, hockey.

You and I will get along real good Liveoak. I always look forward to sharing info and experiences with someone from other parts of the world who shares an interest in soils. However, do not mock me with preconceived notions or naive generalized statements about what I could or should do with my soils. If you've a suggestion, lay it out there and we'll talk. In the meantime, I'll keep using a mixture of soil science and Holistic Management to run this place.

 

[Liveoak]

Not sure how many of my past posts you've ever read before jumping on board, but I'm usually the resident soil quack around here, telling everyone that the soil comes first. Our ranch has several goals, and one of the main ones is improving soil across the entire ranch. It's always at the heart of any decision we make as far as land management/planning.

That said, you have no idea what it would cost me to amend my paddocks and have them all the same. I'd have to borrow alot of money to do that, since the Ca requirements alone would be $240-500/acre, not to mention Mag, P, K, Na and a myriad of other ingredients to keep it all in balance. Who in the Hell can afford to do that????? You talk about it as though it's as easy as the snap of your fingers. If it is, I'd like you to post us all some pictures of the Pearly Gates, and come on, give us a hint, is Elvis up there or not?

Variation in paddocks?? Elementary Dear Watson. 4500 acres of land bordering a wide river basin, ranging from high hills and canyons, to plateaus with somewhat-rich black sand, to lowland areas with natural springs and sinkholes. Some areas run 4% organic matter, others 0.5%. Some areas we've tested run 45,000lbs per acre Ca, and another test 100yds away shows 8,000lbs per acre Ca. Yes, yes, we've heard of soil testing in the Great White North. We've just been busy mastering igloos, the luge, and of course, hockey.

You and I will get along real good Liveoak. I always look forward to sharing info and experiences with someone from other parts of the world who shares an interest in soils. However, do not mock me with preconceived notions or naive generalized statements about what I could or should do with my soils. If you've a suggestion, lay it out there and we'll talk. In the meantime, I'll keep using a mixture of soil science and Holistic Management to run this place.

How can I possibly expect my domesticated beef animals, or any other livestock under my care, to obtain what they need all on their own, when my Holistic Grazing Plan keeps them confined on parcels that most likely do not contain those ingredients for health in a balanced diet? Also, how can I possibly expect them to ADAPT to my ranch's production, when they are never on any particular paddock for more than a few days at a time, and our paddocks range from blow sand on one end of the ranch, to pockets of rich lowland and/or gumbo in other areas?
I'll leave y'all with that one to chew on.

PC, you can ditch the name calling and the trite condenscending attitude. Look at your question and the minor information given. I merely gave my opinion based on that tiny bit of information. I am not judging you, your program or your soil. Attempting to give an answer based on your situation and what you want to do. Remember, you asked.

Now you add the information about nutrient content and the financial considerations of making the soil right. With that understood, and without adding supplements to the cattle diet, the answer goes back to your cattle breed and their genetics. IMHO, the answer is clear, either add supplements to the herd diet or get a breed that can produce your goals on what's available. Or, change your Holistic Grazing Plan. Since changing the breed is probably out of the question, your left with supplementing or changing the plan. Do you have any issues with supplementing your cattle? If not, then the answer becomes clearer. If so, then you have to change the plan. Just trying to help, PC.

 

[RobertMac]

When I can go out to my herd and look at my calves, my top end calves look fine...my bottom end calves look like they need something...mineral, nutrition, better mama. I have to cull about 20 cows to get my herd back to the number of cows I want to run on my place. Those 20 cows will take out all the cows of my poor doing calves and some better doing cows.
Didn't I just solve my mineral/nutrition/performance problem?

If your land is lacking in certain nutrients wouldn't the cattle perform to what they are receiving. Eventually cattle will be lacking in whatever the feed is lacking. Cattle may adapt to their environment but will they perform as well as they should or could?

Or is the question...are we expecting more than our land is capable of giving?

Question for PC and Liveoak...how much can you change your soil above what your parent soil can support and can you afford to keep doing it? How much does the chemical content of the same forage on different soils change? Or does the forage species change with different soil types? How much does the chemical content of different species differ?

NR, my plan was to take away supplements slowly until I hit a production wall...that "wreck" as in a larger than normal percent of my cows coming up open. I'm still waiting!

Is the problem man's vanity in that we think we are smarter than Nature?

 

[Northern Rancher]

There are wayy more interesting wrecks than just a few extra dry cows-when you hit one and if you ranch long enough you will that will take care of any vanity troubles perceived or otherwise. It is either vanity or a remarkable sense of confidence to be able to run a man's ranch thousands of miles away-we all try and do it on here. Be it genetics-shoot EXT's on sight-minerals-some or none-or mechanics-if I weld it my life will be so much better!!!!!