SRM and ignorance running rampant!

[Jason]

Reader the 30 month age wasn't chosen because of level of mis-folded prions, it was chosen because it was below the age of all British cattle that had BSE (36 months), and it is easy to identify their age by mouthing them.

Only 2 cases of younger cattle BSE occured in Japan and they weren't sent for confirmation.

 

[Mike]

Jason:

Only 2 cases of younger cattle BSE occured in Japan and they weren't sent for confirmation.

What do you mean they weren't sent for conformation? The Japs don't have to send them anywhere, they have an accredited "Reference" laboratory of their own. Unlike the U.S. they don't have to send them off to one.

They have also been using Western Blot technology (now a confirmatory test in the US and Canada) since it came out. The USDA questioned that methodology at one time...........before they got their head handed to them on the Texas cow.

 

[Tam]

Reader that is why I said I stood by my comments but I remember once right after we got the ability to PM, one was posted and everyone got mad and said it was Private and should have stayed that way and it was not big deal as it was just a PM that was to ME from HAYMAKER begging me for an apology he thought I owed him about a comment that was on the PUBLIC forum I told him I wasn't going to apologize because after all the name calling he had done to me I felt he had it coming he PM'd me four times one day demanding the apology and I got tired of it so I brought it to the public forum to see if the rest of you thought he deserved the apology or no,t the poll results were he didn't but I still got chastised for bringing it to the public forum so I guess time has changed the meaning of PRIVATE.
And about the SRM's I may be wrong but I choose to believe the experts that have been studing BSE for years and that are in charge of making the rules that the WORLD uses to protect themselves from it. If we can't believe they know what they are talking about who are we to believe.

 

[Jason]

Jason:

Only 2 cases of younger cattle BSE occured in Japan and they weren't sent for confirmation.

What do you mean they weren't sent for conformation? The Japs don't have to send them anywhere, they have an accredited "Reference" laboratory of their own. Unlike the U.S. they don't have to send them off to one.

They have also been using Western Blot technology (now a confirmatory test in the US and Canada) since it came out. The USDA questioned that methodology at one time...........before they got their head handed to them on the Texas cow.

I understand that Mike, but the fact that they didn't fit the pattern they should have been subject to further testing. The Brits have been acknowledged as the foremost experts in BSE (because of thousands of positives). Having them reconfirm the younger cattle as being undisputedly BSE positive would have been a good idea.

 

[Mike]

Reader the 30 month age wasn't chosen because of level of mis-folded prions, it was chosen because it was below the age of all British cattle that had BSE (36 months), and it is easy to identify their age by mouthing them.

I'm not reader but there were animals in the UK that were positive at less than 36 months also.

So it wasn't below the age of "all" British cattle. Better do your homework or somebody might call you a liar. Like you are so prone to do. :wink:

 

[PORKER]

Darn Right Reader,This whole problem is about money and the status quo and your right when the FDA said they were going to close the feed ban loopholes (way back 2 years ago and they're still moving like molasses).COOL is still moving but it has been sidetracked by money and politics.

 

[Mike]

The youngest confirmed case in the UK was 20 months. Hundreds of cases were below 30 months.

Sure, a drop in the bucket out of the 180,000 but young nevertheless.

Sure wish I was a vet, so I could log into the VLA website stats and research studies. There is a complete study about to be released on the feed transmission studies not available to the public now. They will prolly release only the abstracts this year.

 

[Jason]

Thanks for telling me there were under 30 month BSE cases elsewhere.

The point is still that very few humans have been infected, it seems to take a whole series of events lined up just so for it to happen.

People have far riskier habits that will kill a lot more people than BSE ever will.

 

[Mike]

the 30 month age wasn't chosen because of level of mis-folded prions, it was chosen because it was below the age of all British cattle that had BSE (36 months), and it is easy to identify their age by mouthing them.

No Jason don't try to change the subject. The point is............. all SRM's are not removed from under 30 month cattle here because the majority of cattle slaughtered are under 30 months and it would "Burden" the industry.

It gives the average consumer a sense of safety if the USDA keeps repeating it.

The 30 month rule in the UK was that anything over 30 could not go into the food chain and all SRM's were removed in cattle over 12 months. Are we any less important because we have less positives?

Mouthing them has nothing to do with it. It's an "Economic" decision.

 

[flounder]

what about the fact that now we have in Japan and other countries atypical TSE in cattle that the SRMs are of tissue other than the CNS.
you would think that the USDA would not want those atypical tse in USA.
what about that? we have scientist saying that the SRMs should be enhanced to include all tissue that show infectivity now, but we have officials in office that want to go by science that is prehistoric, that does not show this. so really, as other have stated, it is not about science, but commodities, futures, and export. this is nothing more than deja-vu;



MAINTAIN LOW PROFILE, WITHOUT APPEARING TO ATTEMPT TO CONCEAL INFORMATION :-o



http://www.bseinquiry.gov.uk/files/yb/1988/05/06012001.pdf


It has always been about nothing more than money, to hell with human health $$$


the facts speak for themselves. ...



TSS

 

[bse-tester]

Mike wrote:

Sure wish I was a vet, so I could log into the VLA website stats and research studies. There is a complete study about to be released on the feed transmission studies not available to the public now. They will prolly release only the abstracts this year.

Mike, I have a good friend in the VLA at Weybridge, in Surrey and another at the VLA in Newcastle, UK. The guy in the Newcastle branch is a serving member on the board of directors for the EFSA in Brussels. I will contact him and see if I can obtain an advance copy of that report you mentioned. Also, as far as the 30 month issue is concerned, it is important to note that the main reason this age was chosen was to provide an effective smokescreen to the public at large with respect to trying to allow for the concept of non-infectivity occuring prior to that age which, in the political sense of the conspiracy, would show the masses that all meat and meat by-products taken from animals of that age or younger was completely safe. Here in Canada, we had our very own Minister of Health publicly state that animals younger than 30 months simply could not "catch" BSE. The theories surrounding the why and what-for of the 30 month age limit are legion. The overwhelming evidence points to the fact that most agendas were being driven by special interest groups which made up most of the advisory panels in the UK and throughout Europe and they suggested to the British, the French and the Belgium Governments that since animals younger than 30 months almost never (less than 1 % of the European herd) ever displayed clinical symptoms of BSE prior to 30 months, that this age should be the benchmark age. Since the inception of focusing on this age, the entire protocol surrounding the choice and the reasons for the choice of this age have been bastardized into something completely different. The 30 month age now has become the standard by which all animals are declared to be at low or no risk of having BSE or any level of infectivity and therefore they are declared safe enough to not warrant being tested (generally speaking). The problem is simple - any animal can be a carrier of PrPsc and not display clinical symptoms due to their own specific incubation period. That does not detract from the fact that they are perhaps still a walking, breathing time-bomb waiting to enter the human food chain. The Governments of the world, UK, Canadian and US especially, have used this 30 month age as a means to get the meat to market without giving one darn concern as to what they may be providing to the general public in the way of nvCJD. The British Government publicly stated in 2004 that they believed that as many as 4300 people in the UK had been exposed to contaminated meat and were likely infected and would likely go onto develope nvCJD. This was based upon known factors and numbers of animals that entered the food chain without being tested. I heard whispers within the VLA that as many as 2000 UK animals younger than 30 months showed the tell-tall signs of infection such as ataxia and mood swings. God knows what the next generation will be faced with in health care costs and as far as I am concerned, the 30 month age mark is nothing short of a joke and a dangerous one at that. Ron.

 

[rkaiser]

It is extremely hard to bite my tongue and actually support BSE testing for the sake of the ranching community when I read this kind of stuff bse-tester.

That does not detract from the fact that they are perhaps still a walking, breathing time-bomb waiting to enter the human food chain.

God knows what the next generation will be faced with in health care costs and as far as I am concerned, the 30 month age mark is nothing short of a joke and a dangerous one at that. Ron.

If BSE is transmissible and can cross the species barrier to humans, we simply have to have people dieing of BSE in North America as we speak. If anyone believes that the few cattle we have found in the North American surveillance programs are THE ONLY ones with misfolded prions in their bodies the need their brains examined for holes themselves.

These cattle have been eaten by humans bse tester, and these cattle have been around for years and years. Why so few cases of vCJD in North America, with no proof of beef consumption as the cause. With such small amounts of "so called" infective material being considered toxic, those who ate these animals should be dead almost instantly.

Or is the theory of BSE being passed to humans through the consumption of bovine products a faulty theory?

Are the governments of Canada and the USA questioning your theories as I do? Is that why they still balk at bse testing?

People like myself are continually accused of being conspiracy theorists. Do you believe that the government is hiding cases of vCJD?

 

[Anonymous]

It is extremely hard to bite my tongue and actually support BSE testing for the sake of the ranching community when I read this kind of stuff bse-tester.

That does not detract from the fact that they are perhaps still a walking, breathing time-bomb waiting to enter the human food chain.

God knows what the next generation will be faced with in health care costs and as far as I am concerned, the 30 month age mark is nothing short of a joke and a dangerous one at that. Ron.

If BSE is transmissible and can cross the species barrier to humans, we simply have to have people dieing of BSE in North America as we speak. If anyone believes that the few cattle we have found in the North American surveillance programs are THE ONLY ones with misfolded prions in their bodies the need their brains examined for holes themselves.

These cattle have been eaten by humans bse tester, and these cattle have been around for years and years. Why so few cases of vCJD in North America, with no proof of beef consumption as the cause. With such small amounts of "so called" infective material being considered toxic, those who ate these animals should be dead almost instantly.

Or is the theory of BSE being passed to humans through the consumption of bovine products a faulty theory?

Are the governments of Canada and the USA questioning your theories as I do? Is that why they still balk at bse testing?

People like myself are continually accused of being conspiracy theorists. Do you believe that the government is hiding cases of vCJD?

kaiser- What is the incubation period for vCJD in humans? Studies I've read suggest it could be 10-20, even 30 years....Is it just a matter of time :???:

 

[Manitoba_Rancher]

New broom this week- Eh Tam... :???: :wink: :lol: :lol:

Oldtimer if you recieved a PM that you didn't agree with and you replied to the poster would you expect to see your PRIVATE MESSAGE on the PUBLIC FORUM. What does PRIVATE MEAN TO YOU? To me it means PRIVATE NOT to be seen by everyone on the WEB.

Doesn't fly as good as the old one-Eh :???: :lol:

Tam:


You should get OT to bend over and you could show him where you could stick that broom!! :wink: :evil: :shock: :shock:

 

[Tam]

Oldtimer if you recieved a PM that you didn't agree with and you replied to the poster would you expect to see your PRIVATE MESSAGE on the PUBLIC FORUM. What does PRIVATE MEAN TO YOU? To me it means PRIVATE NOT to be seen by everyone on the WEB.

Doesn't fly as good as the old one-Eh :???: :lol:

Tam:


You should get OT to bend over and you could show him where you could stick that broom!! :wink: :evil: :shock: :shock:

I would say he has probably had some experience with a broom up side the head a few time and that is why he didn't know it was not the best time to try be funny. :wink:

 

[rkaiser]

Incubation period for vCJD is 10 years or more. Canada and the U.S. have only had a push on to autopsy all suspected cases of CJD -- to look for any cases of vCJD -- for the last couple of years. The disease is underreported and misdiagnosed. One family wrote today about their loved one dying in 3 weeks from diagnosis.

You may be right and there is little BSE and little or no vCJD or it may be that we just aren't diagnosing and autopsying enough people with a rapidly progressing brain-wasting disease yet to find the cases.

The other possibility, which you will hear evidence for from Flounder certainly, is that we are simply missing cases of vCJD if they arise from atypical BSE which is pathologically different from the strain of BSE was epidemic in the UK.

I asked about suspicion with government and your stories seem to suggest stumbling at the very least. As you know, I would support suggestions of money directing action or inaction.

My question for you reader would concern the incubation excuse. We are slowly being convinced by bse-tester that misfolded prions can be detected in extremely youthful cattle.

Do you think that every person that ate a big mac could start pissing in a cup and doling out the ten bucks to find out if we have the misfolded prion?

Not making light of the subject here R2 - I'm serious. A test like this would certainly make the burger eater piss in the buckwheat so to speak. Testing humans may be a way of finding out if a pandemic is going to occur in the UK and possibly around the world.

 

[rkaiser]

R2 -

Randy - one doable method for testing for vCJD would be biopsy of tissue banks of tonsils and appendices as was done in the UK. I have heard this suggested as a way to know if we do have any cases.

Hell of a lot more productive than the current situation that simply continues to cause distress to the ranching industry.

What do you say bse-tester? If you can detect misfolded prions in bovines under 20 months, can you check my pee for ten bucks?

I realise your personal connections R2, but please don't try to use that to attempt to disqualify my candid nature. I believe my question is worth an answer, even if it comes from left field.

Even if Bovines can be detected at even thirty months, a human should be equally testable.

 

[bse-tester]

Randy wrote:

Or is the theory of BSE being passed to humans through the consumption of bovine products a faulty theory?

Are the governments of Canada and the USA questioning your theories as I do? Is that why they still balk at bse testing?

People like myself are continually accused of being conspiracy theorists. Do you believe that the government is hiding cases of vCJD?

BSE being passed to humans is no theory - it is fact and has been proven by many scientists worldwide including Prusiner, Collinge, Narang and the list goes on.

Governments do not wish to engage in a national testing program for fear that the agent would be found in animals otherwise considered free of it - as in the under 30 month group. Dr. Bob Church, in a meeting two years ago sat across the table from me and told me directly that the Government of Canada would not test more than 30,ooo animals per year. However, they might consider more if the major international packers called for it!! What is with that Randy? That smacks of private industry dictating to the government as to what the testing protocols should be!! He also stated at that meeting that the Canadian Government was checking into a possible number of BSE cases, prior to the feed ban of over 1000 cases of BSE throughout Canada. But we never heard of them did we??

Governments maintain that there is little or no risk to humans. The unfortunate fact is that they know they are wrong! The bottom line here Randy is that some government officials in the UK have been heard - off the record - as suggesting that due to the length of the incubation period, the current administrations need not concern themselves with the question of vCJD as it will not manifest itself during their political lifetime, so why bother to follow it up when this problem can be left for those that follow to worry about.

Randy, you pose really good questions but the one I would pose to you is simply this: Since you are not convinced that animals younger than 30 months can be infected with BSE, how is it possible that PrPsc can be detected in their urine, their blood and subsequently in the brain and lymphatic system? Age is not a factor for any disease - period! The big stumbling block that most people cannot get over is the fact that this disease has a fairly long incubation period and subsequently, clinical symptoms do not show until the number of vacuoles in the brain begin to impede the function of the brain and thus, clinical symptoms begin to show themselves with deadly certainty. But, having said that, would you eat meat from that animal a week, a month, a year or even a day before the symptoms showed up?? Chances are, if you were in the UK just prior to or during the BSE outbreaks there, you might want to pee in a bottle and get it checked, especially if you ate meat and meat by-products. Thousands of animals in the UK walked happily down the shute to the kill floor and showed no signs of a hiccup let alone BSE and that continued right up to and actually during the first weeks of the outbreak. In fact, it was during the early part of the first year of the outbreak that 300,000 tons of offal was shipped to mainland Europe (France) without any concerns at all. So, one might say that Governments either did not wish to impede trade or simply did not act fast enough to prevent the spread of the disease. All I can tell you here is that an animal can be host to PrPsc and show no signs of being ill - period, in the early part of the infection when PrPsc has manifested itself in great numbers in the brain! That animal, in my humble opinion, still represents a danger to you and me and therefore, I do support mandatory full scale testing for a number of reasons and that one alone is a pretty darn good one to begin with in my opinion. Ron.

 

[bse-tester]

Randy worte:

Hell of a lot more productive than the current situation that simply continues to cause distress to the ranching industry.

What do you say bse-tester? If you can detect misfolded prions in bovines under 20 months, can you check my pee for ten bucks?

I realise your personal connections R2, but please don't try to use that to attempt to disqualify my candid nature. I believe my question is worth an answer, even if it comes from left field.

Even if Bovines can be detected at even thirty months, a human should be equally testable.

Reader 2 wrote:

In spite of bse-tester's claims, I'm unaware of a proven method of early detection or even reliable antemortem detection of CJD for humans. Believe me, if it were easily diagnosed, I would not be hearing the horror stories from families that I hear daily. I know that there is a lot of research in this area and in cleansing blood and surgical instruments and finally a bit of research in treatments. But we're in early early days of this disease with very little funding compared to cancer, HIV, Alzheimer's, and so on. Given that it is relatively uncommon but always fatal and transmissable, early detection and ways to keep it out of the food supply and from spreading iatrogenically through medical procedures are warranted.

I will answer on this topic of course. Forgive me for not doing so tonight as it is late and the sandman is beating me to death. So it will have to wait until tomorrow. G'Night all. Ron. Oh Randy, are you sure you can fill the bottle and not miss that tiny little hole - you might want to use a large funnel???

 

[flounder]

>>>The other possibility, which you will hear evidence for from Flounder certainly, is that we are simply missing cases of vCJD if they arise from atypical BSE which is pathologically different from the strain of BSE was epidemic in the UK.<<<


indeed, the UKBSEnvCJD only theory is and always has been a joke.
how could the UK be the only ones, when there **** was exported all around the globe, and even after they knew, the concealed to continue to export for a time period. but that is only if you believe that only the UK scrapie infected only the UK cattle, which is more BSe. the US designed and exported to the UK the continuous rendering tech. 5 years before we started using it. they had at least a 5 years jump on us. the incubation period and the lack of autopsy on the elderly and the fact human TSE have not been reportable but only in a hand full of states up until the past few years, where now only around 30 or so make it reportable and some of those have a stupid age limit on it, which will mean more cases missed.
atypical TSEs showing up in a multitude of species, including humans,
infectivity of these atypical TSEs showing up in non-CNS tissues, the USA with more documented species infected with TSE, all of which have been rendered and fed back to animals for human and animal consumption
(mink on a smaller scale due to scent gland, but were to a small extint).
YOU have sub-clinical carriers that may never go clinical that will infect others via the medical/dental surgical arena. you have the medical and surgical arena to worry about and those infected via medical and surgical procedures. hell, you had feed supplements with highly infectious SRMs for humans, same as you did for cattle via the nutritional supplement industry, they even have mad cow candy bars and were still on the market in 2004. then you have to worry about the dental and eye diagnostic procedures, all a risk factor for transmission of TSE. we had atypical TSE in cattle decades ago, this proven via Richard Marsh. Scrapie and CWD out of control today. the incubation is the fooling factor here.
BSE is NOT the only TSE that is a threat to human health! anyone that believes otherwise are only fooling themselves, and that is o.k. too, because i am hoping you all prove me wrong. ...tss