Surprising answer!
- Thread starter Dylan Biggs
- Start date
Dylan Biggs
Well-known member
Yanuck said:
Yanuck thank you for the reading material. A couple of points that I find interesting:
"With just one out of five or six Angus-influence
cattle meeting CAB carcass
requirements, the only sure way to have
success is to go with carcass-proven
ANGUS progeny".
Sounds like a great idea :!:
"But, in light of the demanding
quality specifications, the brand has a
more positive effect on the value of those
Angus cattle with above average carcass
genetics".
If i understand the verification standards and protocols which I am not sure I do yet they are having a positive effect on the value of any cattle that grade for CAB, which seems counterproductive (if this is true) to the stated purpose of preserving the "value adding" for the Angus cattle and it's association members. Nice of Angus breeders to be so benevolent.
"Despite the incentives to use
selective breeding, specifications for the
brand have never required a certain
percentage of Angus in a calf's pedigree".
Seems to me that requiring at least some % Angus would be of obvious benefit to association members/breeders. :???:
:???: If I was an AAA member I would be feeling very poorly represented by the association and its brand.
Soapweed said:
plain and simple the Hereford Assoc. dropped the ball. I often find myself questioning the people who are in charge. there is room for a LOT of improvement in the mgmt team of the Hereford Assoc.
CHB is growing, there are Hereford only feeders, and I find that by contacting them I am getting a better premium for my calves.
I think it all boils down to preference, I like the herefords. think they are prettier, better mamas, and a lot easier to work with. we sold calves at Salina yesterday. black cattle took the premiums, and my calves looked just as good, but brought less. however two of the buys told me after the sale they want me to bring more just like them in....so I feel like I am on the right track.
watching the cattle come into the ring, it was obvious that most of the blacks were a bit more wild and tore around like psychos in the ring. my calves moped in looked around and waited for the gate to open. could be I sppend more time in the lots with them, could be the prozac in the feed ration... I don't know.
for the record, there is ONE black cow on this place. and she threw the most perfect marked hereford heifer this year! I will try to remember and post pictures of the pair.
Dylan Biggs
Well-known member
Liveoak said:
Given both animals were same age, same finishing ration, and same handling at processing I would say virtually impossible to identify breed eg Hereford or Angus by blind taste test of cooked product.
RobertMac
Well-known member
Given both animals were different age, different finishing ration, and different handling at processing, I would say virtually impossible to identify breed eg Hereford or Angus by blind taste test of cooked product.Dylan Biggs said:
But probably COULD tell a difference between the two steaks...just not which one was which breed. :shock:
CAB only proves that consistent quality specs will give a consistent eating experience. The same quality specs of all Reg. Angus will have the same eating experience of the same quality specs from a mixture of other breeds. CAB gives the packers a name to promote...Angus in the name gives AAA something to promote.
Dylan Biggs
Well-known member
RobertMac said:
True to both.
I just can't figure out why they don't want to consistently( at least some % standard) promote the breed, with beef from an animal of the breed? If you were a AAA member wouldn't you prefer they promote the beef of the breed the association represents? Or is that logic some how erroneous. :shock: :???:
A
Anonymous
Guest
Dylan Biggs said:
In 1978 when CAB started- thats what it was meant to do--But then when it was successful- all the other breeds decided they wanted to make their breeds into black "angus"....Which I thought was kind of a compliment to the angus breed that every other one was trying to duplicate them...And no one now raising "black cattle" (as they describe them now at the sale barns) wants to pull the rug out from under the most successful beef marketing program...
Another rather big marketing program for beef around her is Lauras Lean- which I always thought was ironic when I signed an affidavit for a big old fat angus cow or bull for-- but the main thing those buyers are concerned about is no antibiotics/no steroids....
RobertMac
Well-known member
Dylan, AAA IS getting the promotion without CAB required to be a % Angus or any Angus...and much easier to "certify" 51% black hide than actual Angus genetics. What matters is the quality specs.
Dylan Biggs
Well-known member
RobertMac said:
RobertMac,I understand that AAA is getting promotion from CAB as it is, without CAB required to be a % Angus or any Angus. But to me that is selling Angus breeders short, in that it minimizes the need to buy and use Angus genetics. I can't help but conclude that the AAA board are, at the very least half hearted in exercising the potential leverage of CAB's success to influence breeding and purchasing decisions in favor of Angus breeders. Seems rather negligent and a huge lost opportunity, to me. You know what they say though "familiarity breeds contempt", possibly Angus contempt in this case.
Now as regards "what matters" it would seem you are answering that question from the producer perspective. I venture to guess that if you were to poll the devoted CAB beef consumer the reaction to knowing that the "Angus" beef, oh oops dear me, I meant to say the "certified "Angus" Beef" that they are so fond of may not actually be Angus at all might be slightly different. Just a guess, possibly misinformed. It would be interesting to know.
RobertMac
Well-known member
Dylan, it's hard to argue with success...can you name me an asso. that would want to be in AAA's shoes?
From my prespective as a producer...If I want to raise cattle with a black hide, I'm going to raise good Angus cattle and not try to turn Beefmasters black.
It's amazing to me how many "general public" beef customers think all cattle are black and white dairy cows! :shock:
From my prespective as a producer...If I want to raise cattle with a black hide, I'm going to raise good Angus cattle and not try to turn Beefmasters black.
It's amazing to me how many "general public" beef customers think all cattle are black and white dairy cows! :shock:
Dylan Biggs
Well-known member
RobertMac said:
Success makes right, sounds alot like "might makes right" sorry but I can't buy that simplistic amoral argument.
ANGUS327
Well-known member
Dylan Biggs said:
You might not buy the argument but what are you going to do about it??
Stomp your feet from your moral soapbox??
Dylan Biggs
Well-known member
ANGUS327 said:
It will be hard for you to tell and my feet were worn out long ago anyway.
I should have said "come on you gotta to have something better than that".
In my opinion though the "success makes right" justification is the argument of last resort when a reasoned reply isn't at hand. Its reminds me of when I was a kid arguing with my brother and the final comeback would be reduced to some inane comment like "well you're ugly" or "you're fat". It is like breeders that develop their breeding bulls on a finishing ration that compromises their future use as breeding bulls and the justification is that the bulls sell well so how can you argue with successful sale results.
Arguments are the unfortunate end of what started out as a good discussion, at which point they serve no positive purpose. I enjoyed the discussion while it lasted.
RobertMac
Well-known member
Dylan, just trying to say that I think AAA has reaped about all the benefit they can from CAB even without the requirement of a % Angus. Not only do I agree with you that CAB should be at least 50% Angus, but I believe the producers of AAA and the commercial cattlemen that use Angus genetics should own the meat that is labeled CAB. As you know, the premium check directly from the consumer is much better than the one from the packer middleman!
Dylan Biggs
Well-known member
RobertMac said:
ReobertMac Thank you. Producer product ownership, is that possible in the CAB system? It's a question that hadn't occurred to me. I'm guessing that once the CAB grading specs are confirmed CAB is the only entity that can sell the carcass or parts there of, under the CAB brand to licensed CAB establishments. Making it impossible for producers to maintain ownership of CAB product to the retail level. Is that how it works?
Dylan Biggs
Well-known member
I'm sure this horse is dam close to dead by now but just to be sure:
I got a return phone call yesterday from the national livestock carcass grading specialist who's job it is to audit all beef graders in Canada. He confirmed the accuracy of a number of the posts over the last couple of days regarding the spes for CAB grading in Canada. Specifically that to qualify for CAB:
* Min of 51% black hide coloration.
* Modest or higher degree of marbling
* Medium or fine marbling texture
* "A" maturity
* 10 to 16-square-inch ribeye area
* Less than 1,000-pound hot carcase weight
* Less than 1-inch fat thickness
* Moderately thick or thicker muscling
* No hump on the neck exceeding 5 cm (2 inches)
* Practically free of capillary rupture(bruising)
* No dark cutting characteristics
He also added no dairy cattle are accepted or any bulls or any appearance of staginess(* #9). He said there were no requirements or standards regarding content of Angus blood to qualify.
I got a return phone call yesterday from the national livestock carcass grading specialist who's job it is to audit all beef graders in Canada. He confirmed the accuracy of a number of the posts over the last couple of days regarding the spes for CAB grading in Canada. Specifically that to qualify for CAB:
* Min of 51% black hide coloration.
* Modest or higher degree of marbling
* Medium or fine marbling texture
* "A" maturity
* 10 to 16-square-inch ribeye area
* Less than 1,000-pound hot carcase weight
* Less than 1-inch fat thickness
* Moderately thick or thicker muscling
* No hump on the neck exceeding 5 cm (2 inches)
* Practically free of capillary rupture(bruising)
* No dark cutting characteristics
He also added no dairy cattle are accepted or any bulls or any appearance of staginess(* #9). He said there were no requirements or standards regarding content of Angus blood to qualify.
RobertMac
Well-known member
I think you are correct...CAB is a licensing program, not a true branded beef program. I think some other Angus branded programs could(and maybe are) side draft off the CAB success, but the problem is finding processors that custom process the producer owned labeled beef.Dylan Biggs said:
Soapweed
Well-known member
Dylan Biggs said:
So, if a person only had one critter, and it met all the specifications, and it was black and white spotted, but the black coloring on the critter was 51% and the white was only 49%, would that critter qualify to be CAB? :???: :? :wink:
That is probably not what the first specification is referring to. I assume if there were 100 fat critters ready to be processed, as long as 51 head were black-hided, and the others all met the other specifications, the whole one hundred head would qualify as CAB.
In one way this doesn't seem "fair," since there is no guarantee that any of them actually have any Angus blood in their veins. In another way, the CAB label on these cattle is still pretty much guaranteeing a premium product with the same uniform taste and consistency as any other Certified Angus Beef. The Angus breed is still the overall winner, because consumers correlate Certified Angus Beef with good taste and delightful dining. The very word "Angus" has positive name recognition.
Sometimes everything in life isn't fair and equitable. I am reminded of the big community gathering where an old rancher is picked out of the crowd, called to the front of the people, and is publicly honored for his years of selfless community service. He has been taken by surprise, and is in awe over being in the spotlight. He is asked to say a few words, and fumbles with the microphone as he begins to speak. "I really don't deseve this," he says, "but I've got hemorrhoids, and I don't deserve them, either." :wink:
PATB
Well-known member
Soapweed in your example The 51 percent black hided critter should qualify. the 51 black hided animals should qualify and the other 49 critters would go to some other high end market. USDA inspectors determine which animals qualify for CAB.