Temple Grandin cattle handling video...what do you think?

[Dylan Biggs]

And if there is a dog anywhere in the vicinity, make sure it isn't standing right in the middle of the gate you are trying to coax the cattle through. :wink:

See, you're doing it wrong. The Dog should be bringing the cattle to you,

;-}

The sun should shine every day, with just enough breeze to turn the windmills, and there should be half an inch of rain per week. This is in an ideal world. :wink: Unfortunately we are not living in an ideal world. :? Through quite a bit of hands on experience, I have discovered a few axioms that can make my world operate more ideally, regardless of things that can't be controlled. Not having a "cowdog" around is great for starters. I'd rather have a non-cowdog on hand, than a dog that is always trying to molest the cattle. This is my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

Soap who's in charge you or the dog? Why would you ever let a dog molest your critters?

 

[Dylan Biggs]

I'm somewhat on the same page as Soapweed, however neither of us have ever had a good working cow dog, so how would we really know? Using a good dog would be like riding a good horse. If you aren't handy at training them, the result won't be good. My interest is in horses, not dogs. Therefore, I've not had the desire for one but I can appreciate someone who has a good dog and knows how to handle him.

We had a dog (pet) we called Sammy that thought he was a cow dog. He was quite aggressive in his opinion of his cattle working abilities. Since this "Heinz 57" was normally in the wrong place at all times, we found a solution that kept us from killing the pet.

Whenever we were working cattle either in the corrals or in the pasture on horseback, we'd take down a rope and tie him to a fence post somewhere out of the way. He didn't seem to mind this treatment and it kept him from being a nuisance or in the middle of the gate. Once the task was finished our canine companion was allowed to resume his role as "wannabe" cow dog and he usually complied with our verbal lambasts.

Not long after this dog met his demise (got run over by a truck), we had employed a local school boy for the summer. This kid was not a country boy and knew very little about ranch work. But he was eager and wanted to be helpful, sorta like our Sammy.

We were sorting yearling steers in the corner of a pasture on horseback one afternoon. This kid was always in the way and disrupted nearly everything my Dad & I were trying to do. He didn't seem to understand our verbal commands any better than the dog did. After a period of time and nearly exasperated, my Dad passed by close enough to say under his breath, "Should we just tie him to a fence post?"

I laughed so hard I almost fell off my horse. It became a family joke and a useful expression for dealing with things when they don't go as well as they should.

Here is a bit of what dogs help me with
Once you have had one good one that will gather for you and trail cattle(300 hd) miles while you ride the lead without a word, will stop and bring back a herd(300 hd) of goofy yearlings that go right by the gate and head down the road the wrong way, will load cattle into the stock trailer out in the middle of the bald prairie, will bring the right animal back into the pen when a wrong one gets out when you are sorting, will help you pasture sort for breeding groups, help you hold and settle pairs so you have no run backs after a 7 or 8 mile drive, will hold a new cow calf pair just close enough on the open range so you can rope it without chasing it so you can weigh and tag it, once you have been blessed with and worked with a dog like that you will always , ALWAYS want another one trust me. Cap sired by Ray McDougalds Donnie by Elvin Kopps world champion Jeff. Elvin wanted pups by Cap but his testes never descended so he couldn't breed that's why I was so very lucky to be able to buy him for the measly sum of 1200 bucks. Best money I ever spent, Died 2 years ago now, cancer of the lungs.

Thankfully I have been blessed with a couple of more good dogs the other day they went 3/4 of a mile and found and brought 145 head of mature cows to me without a fuss on one command. And just 2 weeks ago my little female Trixie cut a reluctant bred heifer out of my mature cows for me and walked her through the gate I just stood at the gate. It didn't matter where that heifer went Trixie stuck with her and eventually persuaded the heifer she was better off through the gate with the other heifers.

I use my dogs every single day and they are absolutely invaluable to me. What's a shame is how few people get to benefit from the help of good dogs. There are lots of dogs out there that are of no help what so ever but don't assume there are no helpful dog in existence unless of course you want to.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

We use to have mediocre dogs until 1990 when Bud Williams spent three days on the Ranch with us working cattle and dogs. He set us straight. Once you understand the way Bud approaches a dog mediocrity with dogs or cattle in no longer necessary.

 

[gcreekrch]

And just when ya start ta go braggin'
On that cow-eatin' wonder you're draggin'
The dog you admire
Will P!$$ on a tire
Or go lick his nuts in the wagon. :wink:

 

[cowhunter]

Cowdogs are the ticket. As well as dogbroke cattle. And cowdogs get under a trailer while cattle r in the pen. If not under it, then in it. The best and easyest way to train a cowdog is with a nother cowdog. a shock collar works well as does a 22 pistal with ratshot.

 

[cowboyup]

I'm somewhat on the same page as Soapweed, however neither of us have ever had a good working cow dog, so how would we really know? Using a good dog would be like riding a good horse. If you aren't handy at training them, the result won't be good. My interest is in horses, not dogs. Therefore, I've not had the desire for one but I can appreciate someone who has a good dog and knows how to handle him.

We had a dog (pet) we called Sammy that thought he was a cow dog. He was quite aggressive in his opinion of his cattle working abilities. Since this "Heinz 57" was normally in the wrong place at all times, we found a solution that kept us from killing the pet.

Whenever we were working cattle either in the corrals or in the pasture on horseback, we'd take down a rope and tie him to a fence post somewhere out of the way. He didn't seem to mind this treatment and it kept him from being a nuisance or in the middle of the gate. Once the task was finished our canine companion was allowed to resume his role as "wannabe" cow dog and he usually complied with our verbal lambasts.

Not long after this dog met his demise (got run over by a truck), we had employed a local school boy for the summer. This kid was not a country boy and knew very little about ranch work. But he was eager and wanted to be helpful, sorta like our Sammy.

We were sorting yearling steers in the corner of a pasture on horseback one afternoon. This kid was always in the way and disrupted nearly everything my Dad & I were trying to do. He didn't seem to understand our verbal commands any better than the dog did. After a period of time and nearly exasperated, my Dad passed by close enough to say under his breath, "Should we just tie him to a fence post?"

I laughed so hard I almost fell off my horse. It became a family joke and a useful expression for dealing with things when they don't go as well as they should.

Here is a bit of what dogs help me with
Once you have had one good one that will gather for you and trail cattle(300 hd) miles while you ride the lead without a word, will stop and bring back a herd(300 hd) of goofy yearlings that go right by the gate and head down the road the wrong way, will load cattle into the stock trailer out in the middle of the bald prairie, will bring the right animal back into the pen when a wrong one gets out when you are sorting, will help you pasture sort for breeding groups, help you hold and settle pairs so you have no run backs after a 7 or 8 mile drive, will hold a new cow calf pair just close enough on the open range so you can rope it without chasing it so you can weigh and tag it, once you have been blessed with and worked with a dog like that you will always , ALWAYS want another one trust me. Cap sired by Ray McDougalds Donnie by Elvin Kopps world champion Jeff. Elvin wanted pups by Cap but his testes never descended so he couldn't breed that's why I was so very lucky to be able to buy him for the measly sum of 1200 bucks. Best money I ever spent, Died 2 years ago now, cancer of the lungs.

Thankfully I have been blessed with a couple of more good dogs the other day they went 3/4 of a mile and found and brought 145 head of mature cows to me without a fuss on one command. And just 2 weeks ago my little female Trixie cut a reluctant bred heifer out of my mature cows for me and walked her through the gate I just stood at the gate. It didn't matter where that heifer went Trixie stuck with her and eventually persuaded the heifer she was better off through the gate with the other heifers.

I use my dogs every single day and they are absolutely invaluable to me. What's a shame is how few people get to benefit from the help of good dogs. There are lots of dogs out there that are of no help what so ever but don't assume there are no helpful dog in existence unless of course you want to.

These kind of dogs remind me of the tale about good buckaroos out of Nevada...pretty sure there are some somewhere just haven't had the pleasure to meet one. On the original post if you ever worked for a sure enough cowman you would learn to handle cattle slow and easy. Rattle paddles and the sort should be outlawed or used over the head of anyone who would bring one! a cow won't do much you want her to if she is scared

 

[Soapweed]

There was a fellow that showed up at local brandings. He always appointed himself to watch the gate when cows were being let out and calves were held back to be worked. He had a real knack for being just flat in the way. One old retired cowboy who watched the proceedings remarked, "Old Charlie is just like a bad dog. He can only see one cow at a time." :roll: :wink:

 

[per]

I'm somewhat on the same page as Soapweed, however neither of us have ever had a good working cow dog, so how would we really know? Using a good dog would be like riding a good horse. If you aren't handy at training them, the result won't be good. My interest is in horses, not dogs. Therefore, I've not had the desire for one but I can appreciate someone who has a good dog and knows how to handle him.

We had a dog (pet) we called Sammy that thought he was a cow dog. He was quite aggressive in his opinion of his cattle working abilities. Since this "Heinz 57" was normally in the wrong place at all times, we found a solution that kept us from killing the pet.

Whenever we were working cattle either in the corrals or in the pasture on horseback, we'd take down a rope and tie him to a fence post somewhere out of the way. He didn't seem to mind this treatment and it kept him from being a nuisance or in the middle of the gate. Once the task was finished our canine companion was allowed to resume his role as "wannabe" cow dog and he usually complied with our verbal lambasts.

Not long after this dog met his demise (got run over by a truck), we had employed a local school boy for the summer. This kid was not a country boy and knew very little about ranch work. But he was eager and wanted to be helpful, sorta like our Sammy.

We were sorting yearling steers in the corner of a pasture on horseback one afternoon. This kid was always in the way and disrupted nearly everything my Dad & I were trying to do. He didn't seem to understand our verbal commands any better than the dog did. After a period of time and nearly exasperated, my Dad passed by close enough to say under his breath, "Should we just tie him to a fence post?"

I laughed so hard I almost fell off my horse. It became a family joke and a useful expression for dealing with things when they don't go as well as they should.

Here is a bit of what dogs help me with
Once you have had one good one that will gather for you and trail cattle(300 hd) miles while you ride the lead without a word, will stop and bring back a herd(300 hd) of goofy yearlings that go right by the gate and head down the road the wrong way, will load cattle into the stock trailer out in the middle of the bald prairie, will bring the right animal back into the pen when a wrong one gets out when you are sorting, will help you pasture sort for breeding groups, help you hold and settle pairs so you have no run backs after a 7 or 8 mile drive, will hold a new cow calf pair just close enough on the open range so you can rope it without chasing it so you can weigh and tag it, once you have been blessed with and worked with a dog like that you will always , ALWAYS want another one trust me. Cap sired by Ray McDougalds Donnie by Elvin Kopps world champion Jeff. Elvin wanted pups by Cap but his testes never descended so he couldn't breed that's why I was so very lucky to be able to buy him for the measly sum of 1200 bucks. Best money I ever spent, Died 2 years ago now, cancer of the lungs.

Thankfully I have been blessed with a couple of more good dogs the other day they went 3/4 of a mile and found and brought 145 head of mature cows to me without a fuss on one command. And just 2 weeks ago my little female Trixie cut a reluctant bred heifer out of my mature cows for me and walked her through the gate I just stood at the gate. It didn't matter where that heifer went Trixie stuck with her and eventually persuaded the heifer she was better off through the gate with the other heifers.

I use my dogs every single day and they are absolutely invaluable to me. What's a shame is how few people get to benefit from the help of good dogs. There are lots of dogs out there that are of no help what so ever but don't assume there are no helpful dog in existence unless of course you want to.

These kind of dogs remind me of the tale about good buckaroos out of Nevada...pretty sure there are some somewhere just haven't had the pleasure to meet one. On the original post if you ever worked for a sure enough cowman you would learn to handle cattle slow and easy. Rattle paddles and the sort should be outlawed or used over the head of anyone who would bring one! a cow won't do much you want her to if she is scared

I love the paddle but we drill out the rattles from the paddles right away. They work good in a quiet Bud Williams sort of way.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

And just when ya start ta go braggin'
On that cow-eatin' wonder you're draggin'
The dog you admire
Will P!$$ on a tire
Or go lick his nuts in the wagon. :wink:

Or worse!

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Cowboyup said
"a cow won't do much you want her to if she is scared"

Cowboyup you nailed it.

A cow is more afraid of fear then anything else and if you know how to trade in fear for trust then you can get along just fine, actually better than just fine, until then you will always be on shaky ground!

 

[Faster horses]

This is true even when suckling baby calves. If you take the time
to gentle them a bit, instead of handling them rather rough, it sure
makes it easier to suckle them. Sometimes taking time, saves time!

 

[Soapweed]

See, you're doing it wrong. The Dog should be bringing the cattle to you,

;-}

The sun should shine every day, with just enough breeze to turn the windmills, and there should be half an inch of rain per week. This is in an ideal world. :wink: Unfortunately we are not living in an ideal world. :? Through quite a bit of hands on experience, I have discovered a few axioms that can make my world operate more ideally, regardless of things that can't be controlled. Not having a "cowdog" around is great for starters. I'd rather have a non-cowdog on hand, than a dog that is always trying to molest the cattle. This is my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

Soap who's in charge you or the dog? Why would you ever let a dog molest your critters?

I am, and that's why there ain't no cowdogs on this outfit. :wink:

You spoke of having mediocre dogs before you adopted Bud Williams' methods. Okay, just think back a bit. Which is easiest, using "mediocre" dogs or no dogs? If you are honest with yourself, you will realize that the "no dog" method is far easier than using mediocre dogs. All of my own dogs, and definitely any dogs that hired hands had, were always mediocre or less at best. There is an old saying, "If it feels good, do it." Another one that I just made up is: "If it doesn't feel good, or if it doesn't work, don't do it." Works for me.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

The sun should shine every day, with just enough breeze to turn the windmills, and there should be half an inch of rain per week. This is in an ideal world. :wink: Unfortunately we are not living in an ideal world. :? Through quite a bit of hands on experience, I have discovered a few axioms that can make my world operate more ideally, regardless of things that can't be controlled. Not having a "cowdog" around is great for starters. I'd rather have a non-cowdog on hand, than a dog that is always trying to molest the cattle. This is my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

Soap who's in charge you or the dog? Why would you ever let a dog molest your critters?

I am, and that's why there ain't no cowdogs on this outfit. :wink:

You spoke of having mediocre dogs before you adopted Bud Williams' methods. Okay, just think back a bit. Which is easiest, using "mediocre" dogs or no dogs? If you are honest with yourself, you will realize that the "no dog" method is far easier than using mediocre dogs. All of my own dogs, and definitely any dogs that hired hands had, were always mediocre or less at best. There is an old saying, "If it feels good, do it." Another one that I just made up is: "If it doesn't feel good, or if it doesn't work, don't do it." Works for me.

Soap I would never presume to know what works for you, you are the only one that knows that. If you expand the choice of questions regarding what is "easiest" to include the third option "good" dogs, then I can honestly say the good dog method. There are no free good dog lunches though. If you want to eat at the good dog cafe a price must be paid. If you don't then you won't. I have found very little works that well until I commit to figuring out how to work it well. If anyone sets their mind to it they can become proficient at all sorts of things. Like you said what I choose to set my mind to and what you choose to set your mind to is a personal choice. I would say that any position in life is only as relevant as we choose to make it. Your choice of no dog is fine by me probably fine by the dog too. :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[gcreekrch]

These kind of dogs remind me of the tale about good buckaroos out of Nevada...pretty sure there are some somewhere just haven't had the pleasure to meet one. On the original post if you ever worked for a sure enough cowman you would learn to handle cattle slow and easy. Rattle paddles and the sort should be outlawed or used over the head of anyone who would bring one! a cow won't do much you want her to if she is scared

I love the paddle but we drill out the rattles from the paddles right away. They work good in a quiet Bud Williams sort of way.

I haven't used any sort of stick to work cattle unless a last resort to move a cow up the chute for years. I believe a stick makes you more aggressive and less cattle friendly.
The only person that uses a stick in our outfit is the Mrs as I have no control over her. :roll:
Any invited helpers are requested to leave their cow beaters in their vehicles or stay out of the corrals. As I have vaccinated cows at the rate of 60 per hr by myself in our setup I know what I want and am comfortable working alone if someone gets offended. :wink:

No guys,, Debbie is feeding while I'm working cows, not watching from the window in a pout.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

These kind of dogs remind me of the tale about good buckaroos out of Nevada...pretty sure there are some somewhere just haven't had the pleasure to meet one. On the original post if you ever worked for a sure enough cowman you would learn to handle cattle slow and easy. Rattle paddles and the sort should be outlawed or used over the head of anyone who would bring one! a cow won't do much you want her to if she is scared

I love the paddle but we drill out the rattles from the paddles right away. They work good in a quiet Bud Williams sort of way.

I haven't used any sort of stick to work cattle unless a last resort to move a cow up the chute for years. I believe a stick makes you more aggressive and less cattle friendly.
The only person that uses a stick in our outfit is the Mrs as I have no control over her. :roll:
Any invited helpers are requested to leave their cow beaters in their vehicles or stay out of the corrals. As I have vaccinated cows at the rate of 60 per hr by myself in our setup I know what I want and am comfortable working alone if someone gets offended. :wink:

No guys,, Debbie is feeding while I'm working cows, not watching from the window in a pout.

She probably carrys a stick to use on you. :wink: :lol: :lol:

 

[gcreekrch]

:nod: :nod: :gag:

 

[Silver]

I like a stick, but not for beating. When sorting in a round pen or in an alley cows can be deftly turned or split just by the position you hold your stick. The stick makes your arm longer and can save you steps. When it is used for clubbing it only slows the job down or screws it up altogether.

 

[gcreekrch]

The stick makes your arm longer and can save you steps.

That's what the Mrs says. I have nearly a seven foot wingspan, does it need to be larger?

 

[Dylan Biggs]

I like a stick, but not for beating. When sorting in a round pen or in an alley cows can be deftly turned or split just by the position you hold your stick. The stick makes your arm longer and can save you steps. When it is used for clubbing it only slows the job down or screws it up altogether.

On calm quiet cows the glass cane you refer to works well as long as it doesn't freeze your feet. Not all cows will react to the cane equally sometimes you need to actually move your body to the proper position and if you don't the cow is going to walk right on by. If you bring in outside cattle that are revving in the red upon arrival and you need to work them before you have an opportunity to settle them a cane or paddle or stick is going to be of no value. It all depends on the situation.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

While I am sure the folks mentioned are good at what they teach. I guess I figured thats why we have Grandpas and Fathers and uncles and older neighboring ranchers that hire youngsters. If a person didnt have that around them I guess somebody could try to "teach" it. But knowing a cows pressure point, when to take a step or back up, watching body language, and a million other things you do to work cattle efficiently, safely and gently comes in the bloodstream. Combine that with lots of months a horseback or a foot working cattle and your cattle get worked pretty smooth. When it comes to pens, nobody has to re-invent anything and put it in a book or video. Folks have only been penning and working cattle for thousands of years. It borders on arrogance to think "I" have a new way! The way gates swing or alleys merge or even the slope of the ground all are important and probably used by somebody 1300 years ago. :wink:

And if there is a dog anywhere in the vicinity, make sure it isn't standing right in the middle of the gate you are trying to coax the cattle through. :wink:

See, you're doing it wrong. The Dog should be bringing the cattle to you,

;-}

That is right on and seems so simple, but to nondoggers you are barking up the wrong tree especially if your barkin up that soapweed tree. :lol: :lol: :lol: