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Temple Grandin cattle handling video...what do you think?

leanin' H said:
While I am sure the folks mentioned are good at what they teach. I guess I figured thats why we have Grandpas and Fathers and uncles and older neighboring ranchers that hire youngsters. If a person didnt have that around them I guess somebody could try to "teach" it. But knowing a cows pressure point, when to take a step or back up, watching body language, and a million other things you do to work cattle efficiently, safely and gently comes in the bloodstream. Combine that with lots of months a horseback or a foot working cattle and your cattle get worked pretty smooth. When it comes to pens, nobody has to re-invent anything and put it in a book or video. Folks have only been penning and working cattle for thousands of years. It borders on arrogance to think "I" have a new way! :D The way gates swing or alleys merge or even the slope of the ground all are important and probably used by somebody 1300 years ago. :wink:
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Leanin H from the last 15 years of working with people and cattle from BC thru Alberta, Sask, Manitoba, Ont, Newbrunswick, Montana, and Wyoming, from the Padlock Ranch to the small family farm, may I say as respectfully as possible that I have observed there is still some room for improvement.
 
Dylan Biggs said:
Silver said:
I like a stick, but not for beating. When sorting in a round pen or in an alley cows can be deftly turned or split just by the position you hold your stick. The stick makes your arm longer and can save you steps. When it is used for clubbing it only slows the job down or screws it up altogether.
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On calm quiet cows the glass cane you refer to works well as long as it doesn't freeze your feet. Not all cows will react to the cane equally sometimes you need to actually move your body to the proper position and if you don't the cow is going to walk right on by. If you bring in outside cattle that are revving in the red upon arrival and you need to work them before you have an opportunity to settle them a cane or paddle or stick is going to be of no value. It all depends on the situation.
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Well, my cane is with me at all times and we can work cattle as quiet and efficiently as anyone else. The cane is one tool in the box along with with many others such as the ability to read cattle, patience, and timing. Just because you have a cane in your hand doesn't mean the other end needs to be anywhere but on the ground. Like you say, all situations are different. Heck, one bunch in the round pen can and usually will be different from the next.
 
Some of the pictures I've seen, where dog owners are the proudest of their dogs, the cow has her tail out, her mouth open, fancy footwork is in progress, and dust is in the air. From my perspective, way too much commotion is involved, and yes, "molesting" of the cattle is taking place. If a cow is going faster than a walk, she is going too fast in my book. With a horse, I can control this; with a dog there is a different reaction involved.

Horses and cattle are both grazing animals. They often pasture together, and they get along. With cattle and dogs, there is a "hunter versus hunted" relationship. Cattle have always, in sync with nature, considered dogs, wolves, and coyotes to be the enemy. Cattle regard horses as just a different looking "cousin," if you will. (If you won't that's fine, too.) :wink: Anyway, my point is that a rider on a horse can handle cattle quite differently and less aggressively than if a dog is involved. If you are using both horses and dogs, the dog ends up doing work your horse should be doing, and your horse is less of a horse, of course, because of it.

If you are using horses and dogs together, don't tell me your horse has never been bothered by the dog. This is another reason I don't like cowdogs. There have been too many times a darned dog has appeared unexpectedly and about got me bucked off. Doing cattle work without a dog can be a very enjoyable experience. When a dog is involved, my hackles are immediately up, and the whole cattle-working experience usually ranks well below "enjoyable." :wink:

For the record, I like to use a stick when working in a corral afoot. It does give a person a longer reach. An occasional poke is permissable, but it is not to be used as a beater. I've had some run-ins with hired help over too much use of a stick. Even a hotshot has its place, but only as a last resort and then used very sparingly.
 
As far as dogs go..... it's a pretty sorry cowboy without one in these parts. That is, of course, unless you like leaving your horse behind whilst you, on foot, tramp into the willows / trees / muskeg where horses don't go to push out critturs that have no intention of leaving without a fight.
A dog is another tool. But it's a tool that if you don't want to learn to use it right should be left in the box.
 
Silver said:
As far as dogs go..... it's a pretty sorry cowboy without one in these parts. That is, of course, unless you like leaving your horse behind whilst you, on foot, tramp into the willows / trees / muskeg where horses don't go to push out critturs that have no intention of leaving without a fight.
A dog is another tool. But it's a tool that if you don't want to learn to use it right should be left in the box.
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Having only ever had mediocre dogs and now no cow dog, I understand Soaps not wanting a dog. I also like to work cattle methodically and when my cows are on the flat with no trees or muskeg and gentle hills a dog is not necessary here. Even in our ranch with bush and hills, with our rotational grazing, the cows want to move and a dog is still not necessary. I do however like the cane, as an insurance policy, a walking stick, arm extender and yes a gentle poke once in a while. I have had the odd cow turn on me and she will not get me without having first been deterred on the nose with the cane. More than one person here has been scolded for cane overuse but they are still necessary for protection.
 
Silver said:
As far as dogs go..... it's a pretty sorry cowboy without one in these parts. That is, of course, unless you like leaving your horse behind whilst you, on foot, tramp into the willows / trees / muskeg where horses don't go to push out critturs that have no intention of leaving without a fight.
A dog is another tool. But it's a tool that if you don't want to learn to use it right should be left in the box.
Click to expand...

If I lived and ranched where you do, I would probably also use dogs from necessity. I don't live there; I live here. This is quite open country, and here dogs are a nuisance not a necessity. :-)
 
I respect your stance, Soapweed, and I have for years...since we first
talked about dogs on this forum. I would never try to change your mind.
(Been there, done that :wink: ) It does appear to me that you have
plenty or at least enough help horseback to get done what you need to do.

Mr. FH on the other hand, is alone with a horse and dog. I have seen him
gather yearlings loosely to cross a creek. He then rides across the
creek calling the yearlings and the dog brings up the tail end. They
aren't running; they are just coming along. He'd have a hard time
doing that by just driving the yearlings, with no one to lead them and
no other help. He uses the dog to bring cows out of a pen; and they
come nicely. They don't explode out of there. Our cows are well dog-broke
and the dogs aren't used on them aggressively unless need be.
When we are calving, the dog DOES NOT go close to the cows. Usually
they wait by the fence until the cows are checked. Or they might go
out and around the cows in order to not disturb them. I can see that
using a dog around cows that are not dog-broke, will simply just not
work. The dogs really upset the cows. When we move cows, we keep
the dogs behind the horse unless they are needed for some reason.
We've seen the dogs be at the top of the hill and not come down until
the cows are well strung out and ahead of the dogs. The dogs are
respectful and so are the cows. But if we need the dog to break up
fighting bulls, for instance; it's right there to do so. And in brushy country
a dog is necessary. By dog, I mean a 'good' dog. Not a rang-atang.

I really would like to watch Dylan work his dogs. I don't think we've ever
had any as good as what he describes. Maybe someday.
 
Dylan's dogs are very good and handled well-they gathered up my big old lead steer when he went walk about in the Spondin mist. I agree though if you don't like dogs don't have one.
 
Silver said:
Dylan Biggs said:
Silver said:
I like a stick, but not for beating. When sorting in a round pen or in an alley cows can be deftly turned or split just by the position you hold your stick. The stick makes your arm longer and can save you steps. When it is used for clubbing it only slows the job down or screws it up altogether.
Click to expand...

On calm quiet cows the glass cane you refer to works well as long as it doesn't freeze your feet. Not all cows will react to the cane equally sometimes you need to actually move your body to the proper position and if you don't the cow is going to walk right on by. If you bring in outside cattle that are revving in the red upon arrival and you need to work them before you have an opportunity to settle them a cane or paddle or stick is going to be of no value. It all depends on the situation.
Click to expand...

Well, my cane is with me at all times and we can work cattle as quiet and efficiently as anyone else. The cane is one tool in the box along with with many others such as the ability to read cattle, patience, and timing. Just because you have a cane in your hand doesn't mean the other end needs to be anywhere but on the ground. Like you say, all situations are different. Heck, one bunch in the round pen can and usually will be different from the next.
Click to expand...

Yep I was agreeing with you about the cane. Just that with some people it freezes their feet.
 
Soapweed said:
Some of the pictures I've seen, where dog owners are the proudest of their dogs, the cow has her tail out, her mouth open, fancy footwork is in progress, and dust is in the air. From my perspective, way too much commotion is involved, and yes, "molesting" of the cattle is taking place. If a cow is going faster than a walk, she is going too fast in my book. With a horse, I can control this; with a dog there is a different reaction involved.

Horses and cattle are both grazing animals. They often pasture together, and they get along. With cattle and dogs, there is a "hunter versus hunted" relationship. Cattle have always, in sync with nature, considered dogs, wolves, and coyotes to be the enemy. Cattle regard horses as just a different looking "cousin," if you will. (If you won't that's fine, too.) :wink: Anyway, my point is that a rider on a horse can handle cattle quite differently and less aggressively than if a dog is involved. If you are using both horses and dogs, the dog ends up doing work your horse should be doing, and your horse is less of a horse, of course, because of it.

If you are using horses and dogs together, don't tell me your horse has never been bothered by the dog. This is another reason I don't like cowdogs. There have been too many times a darned dog has appeared unexpectedly and about got me bucked off. Doing cattle work without a dog can be a very enjoyable experience. When a dog is involved, my hackles are immediately up, and the whole cattle-working experience usually ranks well below "enjoyable." :wink:

For the record, I like to use a stick when working in a corral afoot. It does give a person a longer reach. An occasional poke is permissable, but it is not to be used as a beater. I've had some run-ins with hired help over too much use of a stick. Even a hotshot has its place, but only as a last resort and then used very sparingly.
Click to expand...

Soap you couldn't do a better job of convincing yourself even if you tried :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
gcreek-i.ve used a cane for years it just helps keep body parts from getting stepped on,kicked .there are cattle that just don't get the low stress idea any other way :) the cane also can be used to defend yourself when facing down a mad momma .i have also found they work good for hooking calves that need catching.even with my long arms that make your look nomal :lol: :) :wink:
 
Dylan Biggs said:
Soapweed said:
Some of the pictures I've seen, where dog owners are the proudest of their dogs, the cow has her tail out, her mouth open, fancy footwork is in progress, and dust is in the air. From my perspective, way too much commotion is involved, and yes, "molesting" of the cattle is taking place. If a cow is going faster than a walk, she is going too fast in my book. With a horse, I can control this; with a dog there is a different reaction involved.

Horses and cattle are both grazing animals. They often pasture together, and they get along. With cattle and dogs, there is a "hunter versus hunted" relationship. Cattle have always, in sync with nature, considered dogs, wolves, and coyotes to be the enemy. Cattle regard horses as just a different looking "cousin," if you will. (If you won't that's fine, too.) :wink: Anyway, my point is that a rider on a horse can handle cattle quite differently and less aggressively than if a dog is involved. If you are using both horses and dogs, the dog ends up doing work your horse should be doing, and your horse is less of a horse, of course, because of it.

If you are using horses and dogs together, don't tell me your horse has never been bothered by the dog. This is another reason I don't like cowdogs. There have been too many times a darned dog has appeared unexpectedly and about got me bucked off. Doing cattle work without a dog can be a very enjoyable experience. When a dog is involved, my hackles are immediately up, and the whole cattle-working experience usually ranks well below "enjoyable." :wink:

For the record, I like to use a stick when working in a corral afoot. It does give a person a longer reach. An occasional poke is permissable, but it is not to be used as a beater. I've had some run-ins with hired help over too much use of a stick. Even a hotshot has its place, but only as a last resort and then used very sparingly.
Click to expand...

Soap you couldn't do a better job of convincing yourself even if you tried :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

:-) :-) :-)

Kind of reminds me of a Sunday dinner at my grandmother's house about forty years ago. One of her cousins and his wife were there, and my grandmother's brother and his wife were there as guests also. The two old guys had both been to Yellowstone Park in their travels, but not at the same time. The cousin thought it was about the best place he had ever visited, and went on and on about the virtues and beauty thereof. The brother absolutely didn't like the area. He said that with all the hot sulfur springs, the smoke rising, and the sulfuric rotten egg smell in the air, it was as close to Hades as he ever wanted to get. Both men stuck to their guns on their ideas, and neither was about to be changed. It was rather entertaining for the rest of us in attendance at that meal. :wink: :-)
 
I got cows out now. In the back of our place its planted timber and a huntin lease. There's rye planted and my cattle have found it. My fence is mostly good but runs threw some woods and gets trees and limbs on it regular. A lot now with these march winds. The cattle find these holes and go to the food plots. It would be a gob gettin them cattle home without dogs. Its so thick aint nothin but a dog can go to them. They bay up quick, then we drive them home. If one peals off a couple of dogs bring her back. Sorry dogs are sure a lot of trouble but a good dog is worth at least 3 cowboys on horses. At least around here anyways. I wish I was with my boy and our friends but today I quit takein the steroid. My head hurts like a moonshine hangover and I feal as weard as a fish.
 
cowhunter said:
I got cows out now. In the back of our place its planted timber and a huntin lease. There's rye planted and my cattle have found it. My fence is mostly good but runs threw some woods and gets trees and limbs on it regular. A lot now with these march winds. The cattle find these holes and go to the food plots. It would be a gob gettin them cattle home without dogs. Its so thick aint nothin but a dog can go to them. They bay up quick, then we drive them home. If one peals off a couple of dogs bring her back. Sorry dogs are sure a lot of trouble but a good dog is worth at least 3 cowboys on horses. At least around here anyways. I wish I was with my boy and our friends but today I quit takein the steroid. My head hurts like a moonshine hangover and I feal as weard as a fish.
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What kind of a fish? :???: :? :wink: :-)
 
I can certainly see Soap's point of view. I generally have 2 dogs with me all the time and 3 to 4 at times. I have one really good dog and 2 darn good ones in the making. One that is only good if you have somehting held up where you can't get to them. I don't ever take my dog's to the neighbors unless I am asked and I don't want the neighbors bringing their dogs to my ranch. I have a lot of tolerance for a lot of things, but a dog that doesn't listen is like a hired hand that does things his way. If his way is my way that's ok if it's not there is going to be words. Dogs have there place, sometimes that is at home where they belong. As for sticks, I generally don't use one. After I first went to Bud's school, I was sorting calves off cow to pre-condition. I found that when I wasn't in the right position I tried to compensate with the stick. After whacking my gate lady across the hand twice I threw the stick and learned to do things right, very seldom have I picked one up since. I also believe a lot of people use a stick excessively(not everyone, but most.)
 

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