Tony Dean apologizes?

[Southdakotahunter]

SJ, do you have a link to that story at all?

 

[SJ]

I don't. I think it was in the Rapid City paper aroung the 24th of this month. I think the headline was " Sect leader worries compound here could be raided"

If you believe this at all look it up online.

Thanks Oldtimer.

Susan C.

 

[Liberty Belle]

Here's the link. Note that the attorney general agrees that real law enforcement can't just drive onto private property to check something out without a warrant. Maybe GF&P should take care of it for him since they have told us time and again that they can do exactly that!!!

Can you say Open Fields?

http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2008/04/18/news/top/doc48095d0a7405a514684976.txt

 

[Robert]

Couple years ago I was riding my motorcycle north of Pierre by the intakes on Oahe dam, when I popped over a hill and had to break hard to avoid hitting a line of vehicles that were stopped in the highway. the gf@p fish had a road block up checking for over limit fishermen. I pulled off the side a bit so I could get out of the way in case another vehicle came over the hill, I didnt want to get crushed between it and the pickup in front of me. After sitting there for half a hour to work my way up the line, the warden asks me if i had been fishing, I was pretty pissed so I asked him back if it looked like I had been F..king fishing and he let me go.

and yes there were cops close by, one car North and South of the road block parked off the road out of sight so that if gf@p found any drugs or something in their "legal" fish search they could let the guy go and alert the cops to pull them over and do a probable cause search.

total BS that they can get away with blocking major roadways like that, it was clearly a dangerous situation and I told him so. I had had a friend killed on his motorcycle when he popped over a hill and ran into the back of a truck that was stopped for road constuction.

 

[Southdakotahunter]

im not gonna argue with you on that. I know i was stopped at a roadblock one sunday afternoon between chamberlain and Ft Thompson, and it was when i come over a hill and boom, there was the block.

LB and SJ, your both mixing up open fields with knocking your door down to search your home.

Is there any difference with a cop entering a bar (private establishment) and asking for i.d. ?? If so, please let us know. I dont see a difference.

 

[Liberty Belle]

im not gonna argue with you on that. I know i was stopped at a roadblock one sunday afternoon between chamberlain and Ft Thompson, and it was when i come over a hill and boom, there was the block.

LB and SJ, your both mixing up open fields with knocking your door down to search your home.

Is there any difference with a cop entering a bar (private establishment) and asking for i.d. ?? If so, please let us know. I dont see a difference.

No, YOU are mixing up the two issues. The compound that Larry Long is talking about is 140 acres, which is a good example of Open Fields.
The attorney general is not talking about the houses or the curtilage (front yards), he's talking about the private property surrounding the houses and curtilage and he knows full well that real law enforcement can't go in there without probable cause.

 

[Southdakotahunter]

You keep using the term "real" law enforcement. Do you not think a game warden is "real"?

So what about the bar? "real" officers entering a bar and asking for an ID

 

[SJ]

May be a privately owned establishment/bar but it must be a public bar as the officer was not denied access.


There is a big difference.

 

[SJ]

I assume this private establishment has a license/contract with the state to serve liquor!!!!!

 

[Southdakotahunter]

so thats ok because they have a license? I thought if they were doing nothing wrong, and have no reason to come in?

Whats the difference between that and hunting licenses? Why if its ok for the bar, do you feel its not ok for the hunter.

 

[P Joe]

Here's the link. Note that the attorney general agrees that real law enforcement can't just drive onto private property to check something out without a warrant. Maybe GF&P should take care of it for him since they have told us time and again that they can do exactly that!!!

Can you say Open Fields?

http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2008/04/18/news/top/doc48095d0a7405a514684976.txt

Where in the article does it talk about open fields????

A game warden, or sheriff for that matter, can not barge into anybodies house. A search warrant is required for that. Nobody is arguing that. But you can't compare a search on a house to an action witnessed in an open field.

I would venture to bet that GF&P could still go onto that compound if they witnessed a deer being shot to check for a license. I would also say if the cops from public ground seen some old man having his way with a "young looking girl", even if was consentual, out in the woods, that they would have every right to question and detain that man, even if he was on "compound" property.

 

[Liberty Belle]

Here's the link. Note that the attorney general agrees that real law enforcement can't just drive onto private property to check something out without a warrant. Maybe GF&P should take care of it for him since they have told us time and again that they can do exactly that!!!

Can you say Open Fields?

http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2008/04/18/news/top/doc48095d0a7405a514684976.txt

Where in the article does it talk about open fields????

A game warden, or sheriff for that matter, can not barge into anybodies house. A search warrant is required for that. Nobody is arguing that. But you can't compare a search on a house to an action witnessed in an open field.

I would venture to bet that GF&P could still go onto that compound if they witnessed a deer being shot to check for a license. I would also say if the cops from public ground seen some old man having his way with a "young looking girl", even if was consentual, out in the woods, that they would have every right to question and detain that man, even if he was on "compound" property.

P Joe, I do believe you're starting to understand. Yes, the cops could go in to the compound if they saw an old man raping a young girl, but unless they actually see a crime being committed or get a phone call like the cops in Texas did, they don't have the probable cause they need to even go onto the grounds. Just thinking that there must be something illegal going on isn't enough for real law enforcement, although it seems to be all the deer police need.

Now bear in mind that the LDS compound is not a house or the curtilage (yard) around the house. It's a small farm covering 140 acres and as such, qualifies as open fields. GF&P claims that it doesn't have to see someone hunting to come onto our ranches and farms any time they want, which gives unelected game wardens from GF&P more power than the county sheriff, the local police, or even the attorney general.

That may not bother you, but this is the sole issue keeping hunters out of a whole lot of prime free hunting ground.

 

[SJ]

Southdakotahunter
I can see what you are saying, I don't agree. I see a big difference between a public bar and private property—you evidently don't. I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

It seems like such a small thing to ask that GF&P ask to enter, when landowners have allowed free access and fed and housed the wildlife.

I don't believe I can be bound to your contract/license. I don't believe my rights can be signed away by anyone but me. It will ultimately take a court case to have the question answered.

I was told free access on private property is a thing of the past, probably so. I won't charge but until things change I'll keep doing what I am doing.

If you feel my property should be entered without permission or reason or complaint or seeing someone in the commission of a crime or knowing whether hunting is actually occurring or not, on a hunters contract, you must believe it would be okay to enter your home or any home on a hunter's license without permission or a knock to uphold limit laws and the transport law in the name of wildlife.

Just curious how many times have you had your ID checked in a public bar by a police officer?

Pjoe--I would venture to bet that GF&P could still go onto that compound if they witnessed a deer being shot to check for a license.

I don't know pjoe whether they would or not. If the people in the compound are not receiving anything from the state or government and don't have a social security numbers they may be able to subsistence hunt.

pjoe--I would also say if the cops from public ground seen some old man having his way with a "young looking girl", even if was consentual, out in the woods, that they would have every right to question and detain that man, even if he was on "compound" property.

I think there probable cause would be indecent public exposure.

 

[Southdakotahunter]

There are bars in Sioux Falls, Rapid City, Brookings, Aberdeen, Vermillion, and such where the cops show up, unannounced. Heck, im 40 some and look 50, so i dont get asked. I did at the SDSU when i was going to college all the time. My wife did until she was 30. Im sure there are not many in the Harding county area where this happens.

You folks are still getting open fields and entering your farm buildings and homes confused.

If the cops happen to see an old man "having his way" with a younger girl/woman.......How will the sheriff know if the kid is 15, or 16, or 17. Isnt 16 the age in SD?? Now if the younger is kicking and screaming, thats one thing. Just seeing the old man and the younger doing whatever, does that make it ok for the cops to come busting in?? I dont approve of these "cults" but with what your saying, they cant go in unless they know for sure the kid is 15 or less.

The deer police (which are REAL law enforcement LB) cant come busting into your home searching your freezers, refrigerators and such without a warrent. Compliance is no difference than the cops walking into a bar and looking around.

 

[Liberty Belle]

There are bars in Sioux Falls, Rapid City, Brookings, Aberdeen, Vermillion, and such where the cops show up, unannounced. Heck, im 40 some and look 50, so i dont get asked. I did at the SDSU when i was going to college all the time. My wife did until she was 30. Im sure there are not many in the Harding county area where this happens.

You folks are still getting open fields and entering your farm buildings and homes confused.

No, you are intentionally confusing the two. Try to stay on topic here, will you?

There are bars in Sioux Falls, Rapid City, Brookings, Aberdeen, Vermillion, and such where the cops show up, unannounced. Heck, im 40 some and look 50, so i dont get asked. I did at the SDSU when i was going to college all the time. My wife did until she was 30. Im sure there are not many in the Harding county area where this happens.

You folks are still getting open fields and entering your farm buildings and homes confused.

If the cops happen to see an old man "having his way" with a younger girl/woman.......How will the sheriff know if the kid is 15, or 16, or 17. Isnt 16 the age in SD?? Now if the younger is kicking and screaming, thats one thing. Just seeing the old man and the younger doing whatever, does that make it ok for the cops to come busting in?? I dont approve of these "cults" but with what your saying, they cant go in unless they know for sure the kid is 15 or less.

Hey - you got this one right!! Legitimate law enforcement officers can't go in unless they have reasonable suspicion, probable cause, or actually see a crime in progress.

The deer police (which are REAL law enforcement LB) cant come busting into your home searching your freezers, refrigerators and such without a warrent. Compliance is no difference than the cops walking into a bar and looking around.

We aren't talking about busting into houses; we are talking about coming onto private property - the 140 acres in the LDS compound, a twenty acre "ranch" in the Black Hills, P Joe's farm, or our west pasture - without a warrant, without probable cause, or without reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed.

This also has nothing to do with a public business like a bar or a café. Law enforcement has a much right as any other member of the public to enter the premise during business hours. The town cop, the deer police, the county sheriff, or even an ordinary citizen can make an arrest if they see a crime being committed anywhere, but none of them can come on private property without a legal reason to be there, with the notable exception of the deer police who claim the right to trespass on privately owned open fields for any reason and at any time.

 

[Anonymous]

There are bars in Sioux Falls, Rapid City, Brookings, Aberdeen, Vermillion, and such where the cops show up, unannounced. Heck, im 40 some and look 50, so i dont get asked. I did at the SDSU when i was going to college all the time. My wife did until she was 30. Im sure there are not many in the Harding county area where this happens.

You folks are still getting open fields and entering your farm buildings and homes confused.

If the cops happen to see an old man "having his way" with a younger girl/woman.......How will the sheriff know if the kid is 15, or 16, or 17. Isnt 16 the age in SD?? Now if the younger is kicking and screaming, thats one thing. Just seeing the old man and the younger doing whatever, does that make it ok for the cops to come busting in?? I dont approve of these "cults" but with what your saying, they cant go in unless they know for sure the kid is 15 or less.

The deer police (which are REAL law enforcement LB) cant come busting into your home searching your freezers, refrigerators and such without a warrent. Compliance is no difference than the cops walking into a bar and looking around.

In Montana in order to be licensed and operate a legal liquor establishment (bar) you must provide access to law enforcement at any time when someone is in the establishment...
And if you operate a gambling game after liquor hours (which is legal) it must have open access by the law enforcement.....

Interestingly back years ago--- there were only 2 laws on the books that I know of that allowed a warrentless search of a private dwelling - violation of liquor laws and gambling...I never researched them, but believe they may date back to and tie into prohibition laws...

Jokingly- we used to say if we were trying to go on a "fishing trip" looking for drugs we should get someone to report a poker game there :shock:

No with the powers the F&G have tried to assume- the law enforcement guys looking for drugs say they should get someone to call the game warden and report poached animal parts in the house.... :shock:

 

[SJ]

I am going to be out of pocket for a while.

I am not confusing the open fields with building and homes.

GF&P's interpretation of the open fields and the AG opinion of the open fields are just that an opinion/interpretation and I disagree with it.

I am going to do a little research on police powers and who was actually granted police powers.

Susan Clarkson

 

[Happy go lucky]

LB CO's are real law enforcement officers in all states I know of? They all now go through the states acadamy and receive the same training as city police,sherriff, deputy, Highway patrol etc. They also enforce the game laws in each state as well as helping with other law enforcement matters.
To claim they are not real enforcement is obsurd. They take the training required and then some in field training when it comes to dealing with many people that are armed and look to find ways to get by with illegal activity's at all hours and days of the year. Poaching is not a specific crime it can be done by anyone, at anytime. More so than other crimes, because of the limited coverage most CO's can patrol and the ground they cover that isn't just common to your state but many. You should tip your hat as many are way under paid and many states are having hard times trying to keep and obtain good CO"s due to the pay scale, the danger of the jobs in many areas of the US and the many hats they wear.
It seems as though your state has decided the outcome of this decision on open fields yet you want to hold your Game Dept as hostage for a court decision? Why not go to your court system and bad mouth them like you do your game dept and see how far that get;s you? It seems they had the final decision on this matter correct?
Probable cause to check to see if they have the right license,right ammo, right weapon are all in itself there LB. That is the probable cause to check. Federal law mandates no lead for migratory birds how does one check that without entering the property? The list can go on and on LB, you seem to be stuck on this issue and too many they can't see why? I have in the past owned a few acres and hunted on it yet I would have zero problem with a CO comming onto my property to make sure me or the others on there are within the law, that is one of the jobs they are hired to do!

 

[Liberty Belle]

LB CO's are real law enforcement officers in all states I know of? They all now go through the states acadamy and receive the same training as city police,sherriff, deputy, Highway patrol etc. They also enforce the game laws in each state as well as helping with other law enforcement matters.
To claim they are not real enforcement is obsurd. They take the training required and then some in field training when it comes to dealing with many people that are armed and look to find ways to get by with illegal activity's at all hours and days of the year. Poaching is not a specific crime it can be done by anyone, at anytime. More so than other crimes, because of the limited coverage most CO's can patrol and the ground they cover that isn't just common to your state but many. You should tip your hat as many are way under paid and many states are having hard times trying to keep and obtain good CO"s due to the pay scale, the danger of the jobs in many areas of the US and the many hats they wear.
It seems as though your state has decided the outcome of this decision on open fields yet you want to hold your Game Dept as hostage for a court decision? Why not go to your court system and bad mouth them like you do your game dept and see how far that get;s you? It seems they had the final decision on this matter correct?

No, as a landowner I have the final decision and my decision is to not allow hunting on my property so I don't need to bother with a bunch of legal fees and waste a lot of time in court just so you guys can have free hunting on my place without me having my property rights trampled on.

Probable cause to check to see if they have the right license,right ammo, right weapon are all in itself there LB. That is the probable cause to check. Federal law mandates no lead for migratory birds how does one check that without entering the property? The list can go on and on LB, you seem to be stuck on this issue and too many they can't see why? I have in the past owned a few acres and hunted on it yet I would have zero problem with a CO comming onto my property to make sure me or the others on there are within the law, that is one of the jobs they are hired to do!

Every issue you mentioned is a check on hunters. If I don't allow hunting, your jack-booted-thugs are going to have to find somewhere else to abuse hunters and they won't be violating my rights in the process.

I have in the past owned a few acres and hunted on it yet I would have zero problem with a CO comming onto my property to make sure me or the others on there are within the law, that is one of the jobs they are hired to do!

Have at it – why not let them wander through your bedrooms, your bathrooms and check your freezers while they're at it? Since you don't mind the deer police trespassing on your land, I'm sure you won't mind letting them peek into your closets either, will you?

 

[Happy go lucky]

LB your an extremist! Open fields and behind closed doors are 2 separate things. No different than those that fly and take aerial photo's they don't your or my permission to take photos of anything and can sell them to anyone. Google earth will allow anyone to check out buildings,grounds etc.

Abuse? How is a license check abuse? Every hunter,trapper or fisherman know they can be checked.