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Non-EXT Sire questions

Grassfarmer,
At this time my cattle are sold on the Grid, but I no longer own them. I am still paid by the pound. I am able to see what my cattle grade individually with the premiums/discounts, the gain, death rate, and which ones were pulled do to sickness.

Now I think you are saying: Wouldn't I be just as far ahead if I didn't worry about how they did in the feedlot and on the hook, because I would equally gain by having cows stay longer in the herd.
If thats what you are saying, I will agree to an extent. Having cows stay in my herd longer is without a doubt a tremendous asset. Now that I said that, I need 12% replacements. Why wouldn't I go after the weight and give the proof of what my cattle can do in the feedlot, by breeding the rest of my cows to something with added performance. Yes, I believe there are dollars worth getting by doing this.

I wish I could market the steers from my "maternal" bunch seperatly, but I come up short on load lots.
Are these Shoshone from Larry Leonhardt registered? Where can I get info. How do they perform in the feedlot and on the hook? Because that's where I believe where they will end up.
I know that all this moderate maternal breeding still has pedigrees with poor teat and udder quality. It might not be as bad but its there. So I guess when buying sires, its still just a gamble on the teat and udders.
 
Are these Shoshone from Larry Leonhardt registered? Where can I get info. How do they perform in the feedlot and on the hook? Because that's where I believe where they will end up.
Click to expand...

Horseless- heres a link to Shoshone angus... Gary Funks herd is heavy Shoshone influenced...He tried a little Diamond D, OCC, and few other bulls for a couple years- but then told me he was going back to mostly the Shoshone lines because he'd had the best results from them...

http://shoshoneangus.homestead.com/home.html
 
Are LL cattle registered? I would say yes, as he showed us some registration papers. I don't know about getting papers on a bull
because he told us what they were and we didn't ask for papers.
And there are a couple of lines of his cattle whose udders aren't
as good as some others. But he'll tell you which ones and he
is continually working on that. You can never sleep in this business!

At one time, the only outcross cattle he had were from John Hamilton's Cedar Hills Angus. And that is because he was SURE John Hamilton was honest with his cattle.

10 years ago, LL had white tags for his linebred cattle; yellow for 25% outside influence and green for a higher percentage outstide influence.
He now only has his linebred cattle because he's sure enough of themnow to breed just that way.

Do a google search of Shoshone Angus. or Larry Leonhardt. There is plenty of sites to choose from. Good Luck!!

Did you know that Schearbrook Shoshone was the number one bull
for milk in the angus breed at one time. Granted, they didn't all have the best udders; but there was a time when milk was being bred out.
We used to buy some registered cows from some folks up by Chouteau, Mt. They only ran so many and when cows got a certain age, they sold them. We started buying those cows and man, did they work for us.
One year they called and were ready to sell some cows, only this time it wasn't middle aged cows, it was all 2-year old heifers. We went up to look
but didn't care for the 2 year olds. I asked them, "if you kept these heifers, what would you breed them to?" The fella never hesitated, and he answered "Shearbrook Shoshone.' That proved to me why these heifers were for sale instead of the mid-aged cows. They were daughters of Fairfield Hi Guy; who became noted for no milk.

We didn't buy the heifers. One wrong cross (in this case it was performance they were seeking and it backfired.) Took the milk right out of those heifers with one bull.
 
OT,
Thanks for the link. After I seen it, I remember reading it a while back. If I recall, I emailed him and never got a response.
Not to disagree with anybody on his knowledge and cattle, it must be something he strongly believes in, something just strikes me odd in how hard it is to find those genetics.
Lets say he has convinced me on his type of genetics. Now I would like to try some. Whats the chance of finding semen on those genetics?
 
Horseless said:
OT,
Thanks for the link. After I seen it, I remember reading it a while back. If I recall, I emailed him and never got a response.
Not to disagree with anybody on his knowledge and cattle, it must be something he strongly believes in, something just strikes me odd in how hard it is to find those genetics.
Lets say he has convinced me on his type of genetics. Now I would like to try some. Whats the chance of finding semen on those genetics?
Click to expand...

Why would you want to buy semen on them? with 200 bulls to choose from at $1800 they are priced where everyone can afford the genetics.
Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to sell you Shoshone breeding, I'm not an Angus breeder, have never seen LL's cattle but am really impressed by the philosophies he has. He sounds to me like a guy with not only knowledge but wisdom too and that is a rare thing. Most of what I learned about him came from the following post on the 5BARX forum.
http://5barx.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2183
There are 676 replies to the post and over 26,000 viewings so it takes a while to work through it all but there are some gems contained within.
 
Grassfarmer said:
Horseless said:
OT,
Thanks for the link. After I seen it, I remember reading it a while back. If I recall, I emailed him and never got a response.
Not to disagree with anybody on his knowledge and cattle, it must be something he strongly believes in, something just strikes me odd in how hard it is to find those genetics.
Lets say he has convinced me on his type of genetics. Now I would like to try some. Whats the chance of finding semen on those genetics?
Click to expand...

Why would you want to buy semen on them? with 200 bulls to choose from at $1800 they are priced where everyone can afford the genetics.
Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to sell you Shoshone breeding, I'm not an Angus breeder, have never seen LL's cattle but am really impressed by the philosophies he has. He sounds to me like a guy with not only knowledge but wisdom too and that is a rare thing. Most of what I learned about him came from the following post on the 5BARX forum.
http://5barx.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2183
There are 676 replies to the post and over 26,000 viewings so it takes a while to work through it all but there are some gems contained within.
Click to expand...

And it is best to read his philosophy's a little at a time and let them settle in before you consume more. I was at a ranch here a few weeks ago the guy had 2 bull's he bought from LL they were the best two bulls I've seen in along while. His yearling's were in really great condition just being fed top quality hay and no grain. That can't be said of most of the angus breed these days..

He also stated that when LL keeps a bull he keeps 3 from the same lineage kind of a small medium and large variation of the same genetic make up and he said most always it's the smallest of the bulls that leaves the greatest impact in his herd.
 
Grassfarmer said:
Why would you want to buy semen on them?
Click to expand...

Why not??

200 bulls at $1,800 sounds good. When I get done with the fencing, branding, and all the wheat in, I'll rush down there those 400 miles (or so)and get to the front of the line when its time to pick :wink: .

I'll have to read those posts on the other site.[/quote]
 
I have been following this thread thought I'd chime in. It seems that more and more commercial cattlemen/women are fed up with the kind of cows they are getting. Myself included here.


It is my opinion that I have listened too long to what I should be raising whether it be too much growth/carcass and my cowherd has suffered. I still use EPD s but only to sort out the far outliers the rest I am just using my eyes. We finish all the steers out so I don't need any real duds on carcass but I am not looking for any carcass allstars either. I will post a picture sometime of an Angus bull that I think will turn things in the right direction. We will get about 50-55 calves in his first calf crop naturally.

I'll echo what Justin said about 6I6 daughters. Really nice cows that have wonderful udders. Might milk too much for some people but overall I wish I had more of them. Can't say that about every AI bull I have used. No problems with fertility in my herd.
 
Denny said:
Grassfarmer said:
Horseless said:
OT,
Thanks for the link. After I seen it, I remember reading it a while back. If I recall, I emailed him and never got a response.
Not to disagree with anybody on his knowledge and cattle, it must be something he strongly believes in, something just strikes me odd in how hard it is to find those genetics.
Lets say he has convinced me on his type of genetics. Now I would like to try some. Whats the chance of finding semen on those genetics?
Click to expand...

Why would you want to buy semen on them? with 200 bulls to choose from at $1800 they are priced where everyone can afford the genetics.
Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to sell you Shoshone breeding, I'm not an Angus breeder, have never seen LL's cattle but am really impressed by the philosophies he has. He sounds to me like a guy with not only knowledge but wisdom too and that is a rare thing. Most of what I learned about him came from the following post on the 5BARX forum.
http://5barx.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2183
There are 676 replies to the post and over 26,000 viewings so it takes a while to work through it all but there are some gems contained within.
Click to expand...

And it is best to read his philosophy's a little at a time and let them settle in before you consume more. I was at a ranch here a few weeks ago the guy had 2 bull's he bought from LL they were the best two bulls I've seen in along while. His yearling's were in really great condition just being fed top quality hay and no grain. That can't be said of most of the angus breed these days..

He also stated that when LL keeps a bull he keeps 3 from the same lineage kind of a small medium and large variation of the same genetic make up and he said most always it's the smallest of the bulls that leaves the greatest impact in his herd.
Click to expand...

For sure it takes a while to take in all that is contained in Larry's philosophies on that one forum thread alone. The comment about the small, medium and large bulls is discussed there but if I understood his comments right it's being slightly misquoted here. I think in the early stages of the linebreeding/inbreeding work he did he kept the different size models because he wasn't sure which were the ones to pick. Looking back it is the smaller ones that have contributed most genetically - I don't think he will keep a big, medium and small bull now because he has them at an average, fairly predictable size.
One thing I think he did say was that the toughest thing for him to do, still after 30 years at it, was to pick an average middle of the road bull to retain as a herdsire. That is how he has improved his herd and kept the moderation in them but human nature will always lead us to pick the "mostest" bull - the most the type we are looking for, whether that be biggest, smallest, milkiest, thickest etc. By doing so we are picking the outliers - the ones with the most heterosis hence the least chance of reproducing their phenotype through their calves. Another comment was that individual bull performance is unimportant because their role is only to pass all the female characteristics and traits of the mother to the next generation (assuming of course the mother is good and the type you want)
As I say I don't know what the guy's cattle look like but his philosophies are a revelation to me. If they are even reasonably accurate it is no wonder typical bull selection has led to so many people disgruntled with their Angus cows. It seems many purebred guys are breeding generation after generation of outliers to each other, picking sires on their growth curves and maintaining terminal sire type wonder cows that weigh close to a ton.:roll:
 
Grassfarmer, you are right on as far as I know, about LL philosophies.

And if you want to pick a bull, you better go early cuz big outfits buy bulls by the dozen from him.By now I doubt if he has many, if any, left. If you want a heifer bull, he'll help you choose or tell you what to expect. HE KNOWS HIS CATTLE. The bulls are hard to select because they are so much alike phenotypically.


We went there in February with a good friend and we picked out 7 bulls.
We have decided to sell our cows either this spring, early summer or
next fall so we didn't buy one. We are just going to use the bulls we have. We bought In Focus bulls to breed our heifers to, because I thought
name recogition would be important when we sold them.

Our cows out of Shoshone bulls are awesome. We sold some cows in 2005 and the rancher who bought them liked the Shoshone cows the best.
Shearbrook Shoshone is a Wye bred bull and many of LL bulls go back to Wye. We have been using Wye bulls for several years now.

If you are looking to buy bulls by the EPD numbers, you won't like
Larry's cattle. The EPD's wouldn't impress anyone, but the cattle will.
I think that is why he made the statement, "no one wants my bulls, but
everyone wants to buy my cows."

Horse Butte Ranch has the Prince bull from Larry and they used his
genetics. They wanted that price bull so bad that in order to get him,
they gave Larry an interest in Omaha Clint. But that's another story.
 
FH, I don't want to buy any Shoshone Angus bulls, wrong breed, wrong color for me :shock: I'm certainly impressed enough with what I've heard that if I were buying Black Angus I'd certainly go check them out. In fact I may go and check them out anyway as the breeding program/selection methods may be something I can utilise in my own operation.
 
If I never post on here again its because I am still reading that post on 5barx. :wink: It must be the Mother of all posts :!:
Someday I will have to make the trip down there for a visit.
In the mean time, I may need to AI more this year as I am short on bull power that I am satisfied with (for my maternal breeding). DDA may be where I turn to again, or 6I6 or....? Running short on time.
 
Horseless said:
If I never post on here again its because I am still reading that post on 5barx. :wink: It must be the Mother of all posts :!:
Someday I will have to make the trip down there for a visit.
In the mean time, I may need to AI more this year as I am short on bull power that I am satisfied with (for my maternal breeding). DDA may be where I turn to again, or 6I6 or....? Running short on time.
Click to expand...

Yep it does take some reading-- and some thinking to dig thru the taters and gravy and find the meat to the ideas ....

Mike Keeney who posts on that site- and is a protoge of Larry's has been a longtime user of Shoshone genetics... He is also very outspoken about his beliefs in maternal cattle and cattle breeding forgetting about the numbers...I've never met him- but a couple of the local breeders that have say he has quite a program, that everyone should see if they get the chance- and possibly has had some of the most heavy % linebred/inbred cattle in the angus breed....

I'm not sure if LL sells any of his bulls as registered anymore...I know he was talking about stopping doing so....Another herd that has a heavy Shoshone base in their cattle is Horse Butte Ranch... I almost went down to see their sale a couple of years ago- but then found what I wanted more at the Whitney Creek sale.....

http://horsebutteranch.com/index.htm
 
OT, Larry will give you the pedigree on the bull, but like you, I don't think the bulls are registered. I do believe the cows are tho. He probably keeps his herd sires registered. But he does things his own way, so who knows.

I do know from selling advertising to Montana seedstock producers, that he has much respect from just about all of them. I heard about him for a long time before meeting him. I always come away having learned something.

And grassfarmer, my remark about the bulls being pretty much picked over by now was directed at Horseless, not you. I reread my post and I could see why you thought I meant you. Sorry for the confusion.
 
Hay Feeder said:
The new western bred outcross maternal is tbk is HARB Windy 702
total out cross. Genex bull.
Click to expand...

He's a 6.4 frame score I like his -$en value at a -9.57and a 37 scrotal. I've got a Really Windy son that some folks were looking at today he's a pretty good looking rip but at the top of his Tag are the initials RW which stands for Really Windy but it's more like Really Wild he's pretty quiet until you try to do anything with him I told them about his woofyness and they purchased a OCC Bred bull instead.
 
Hay Feeder said:
Larry Leonhardt sure could raise alot of SUGAR beets they are more up there than one thinks . When coming off the mountain from Red ? Deer ? Lodge Mt you will find his herd right at Crowley.
Most of the ranchers near Greybull ,Powell and Thermop area get a big joke out of what they call his Wyoming inbred cattle.
Nice name good talk when I come off that mountain I am glad to see anything alive even BLM Feedlot horses.
Sorry to be so hard but there is always two sides of the coin.
OCC and Leonhardt cattle just do not work for the feeder buyers, Cow Calf operations here nor the purebred breeders.
Click to expand...

The OCC and Shoshone won't work for feeder's now thats a hoot if I ever heard one.Ton's of cattle here carry the Shoshone Viking in their pedigree's and they have no problem selling them. The guy who buy's my calves has said that he makes more money on them just do to feed effiencies and conversion before any grid money. You can say bull but he's bought these calves for 5 years now and I'm sure they will go the same way this fall.

As far as purebred breeder's go they are more a Bull of The month crowd than Breeder's. When you let some kid with a Genx or ABS jacket reccomend bull's your not a breeder your a fad chaser.
 
Faster horses said:
Denny, I hear you. We bought a nice heifer bull that was Crook Mountain Really Windy. Nice bull, but not a very nice attitude so we sold him after
using him one year. It's kinda "in there" with the Windy cattle, I think.
Click to expand...


Where were you guys last year when i was looking and bought a Really Windy bull. :???:

Actually he seems pretty good but we don't handle them much so will see at testing time. :?
 
Big Muddy rancher said:
Faster horses said:
Denny, I hear you. We bought a nice heifer bull that was Crook Mountain Really Windy. Nice bull, but not a very nice attitude so we sold him after
using him one year. It's kinda "in there" with the Windy cattle, I think.
Click to expand...


Where were you guys last year when i was looking and bought a Really Windy bull. :???:

Actually he seems pretty good but we don't handle them much so will see at testing time. :?
Click to expand...

Mine were just babies then never did get a heifer calf out of him.I have a OCC Hunter son that's about as queit as you can ask for.I really like the OCC Hunter cattle I have they are pretty nice to look at and work with.
 
Denny said:
Big Muddy rancher said:
Faster horses said:
Denny, I hear you. We bought a nice heifer bull that was Crook Mountain Really Windy. Nice bull, but not a very nice attitude so we sold him after
using him one year. It's kinda "in there" with the Windy cattle, I think.
Click to expand...


Where were you guys last year when i was looking and bought a Really Windy bull. :???:

Actually he seems pretty good but we don't handle them much so will see at testing time. :?
Click to expand...

Mine were just babies then never did get a heifer calf out of him.I have a OCC Hunter son that's about as queit as you can ask for.I really like the OCC Hunter cattle I have they are pretty nice to look at and work with.
Click to expand...


This year I bought a Crowfoot Equation5793R son. He's by OCC Legacy on the top and a Tomwall Pied Piper cow on the bottom. He just got home and is in with 15 other yearlings and wehave been busy so not sure how he will handle but my home raised bulls are usually pretty good.
 

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