Surprising answer!

[PATB]

Good post FH but I think you may have missed my intent.

Why would a producer go to the extra effort and cost of putting Certified Angus tags in actual Angus sired calves when the rules at the packing house state 50% black hided and to meet a certain grade. If the assn. stood by their Angus sired rule and the grading percentage was the same, would that not make the qualified product worth that much more?


How much Angus does a black Holstein have in it's ancestry?

There are no ceritified angus tags. The program is Angus Source that is an age/source verified program. Maybe the rules for CAB need to be updated with the times and require angus source tag cattle. The only problem is there are not enough angus source tag cattle to meet the need for CAB.

 

[jigs]

Suppose I'll throw in a point or two here...

When CAB was created in the 70's (?) there was pretty much one black-hided breed. Can you guess the name? Hence, the black-hide requirement pretty much guaranteed Angus at that time. Since then many other breeds have gone black to follow the market that was created for black Angus. So the hide color thing doesn't work quite so well anymore.

Next, I think only about 15% of the 51% black-hided cattle make it past the carcass specs for CAB. So, it sure doesn't look like just a black-hide deal and you get a rubber-stamp on that critter.

Finally, if there weren't some Angus blood in a lot of those 51% black-hided cattle that go into CAB, then I bet there also wouldn't be very many of them meeting the carcass marbling that is needed. Likely a bit of Angus in those crossbreds, don't you guess?

Jigs, I'm sorry, but I have to call you on that statement about Hereford adding the marbling to the Angus cows for your neighboring ranchers. Maybe some Hereford bulls will do so, no doubt, but as a breed I don't think that Herefords are upping the marbling ante on Angus. Yes, the Hereford cross is sure a good one and likely some benefits above straight Angus in many cases.

If I'm betting my dining budget on a good meal, I'll bet on a CAB steak every time. Chances are just way better that I'll get the kind of steak I am looking for. So what's in a name? There are specs there that help me hedge my bet.

HP

basing my assumptions on what 3 local guys have told me about thier program...they had to add the Hereford to up the quality of the grading...

this is easily turning into a pissing match, we all have our preference. I just do not like the idea of CAB being anything black. truth in advertising..call it Certified Black Hide Beef.

 

[flyingS]

What is Certified Angus Beef ® (CAB) product?
The Certified Angus Beef ® brand is reserved for Angus beef that, after meeting the live specification of being at least 51% black-hided or AngusSource® enrolled, is verified by the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) as meeting the ten CAB carcass specifications:

1. Modest or higher marbling
2. Medium or fine marbling texture
3. "A" maturity for each, lean and skeletal characteristics
4. 10 to 16 square inch ribeye area
5. Less than 1,000 pound hot carcass weight
6. Less than 1 inch fat thickness
7. Superior muscling (restricts dairy influence)
8. Practically free of capillary rupture
9. No dark cutters
10. No neck hump exceeding 2 inches

51% black hide can be 1% Angus and still qualify if it meets the other specs.

MWJ has a good point. Although you are asked to sign a document that states that your product is 50% angus when you sell it CAB. The problem is those people who take advantage of the program to get the benefit. There name obviously means nothing if they are willing to put it on a mis-represented document. The true problem is that the industry is so busy trying to get one up on everyone else that a handshake has become just a handshake and is no longer considered a contract. People do not like the CAB program becuase their cattle do not fit and they can not take advantage of the premium. There is nothing in the guideline that says that it is 100% angus. It is probably the best marketing tool to ever hit the industry and now others are following suit. This will offend someone I am sure. COOL is no different. People do not want to go throught the extra work to conform to the programs requirements. Yet, why wouldn't you want a stamp on your meet that represents it as RAISED IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. I do not agree with all the guidelines with either program. We have been forced to change becuase there are to many of us unwilling to change. We have to start somewhere. What ever program you follow you need to be proud of it and represent it as it truly is. Honesty and integrity always prevale.

 

[Denny]

Maybe you all should do a genetic test and see just how much angus blood is running thru the veins of all the (OTHER) black hided cattle.

If you don't like it don't buy it's easy enough.Hearsay bullshit from someone jealous is just that hearsay bullshit.

 

[Faster horses]

Good post, Soapweed. It is about the 'eating experience' for the consumer.

Anyone here has the same chance as those that run Angus or % Angus
cattle. If it is like you say, get your cattle qualified if they don't need
to be Black Angus to be CAB.

Or buy a 'black bull' and get them qualified. I don't think anyone here is going to change the system, so why buck it?

It works. You can use CAB marketing on your own cattle, IF they
meet the qualifications. It's no different for the rest of us.

 

[katrina]

We used to do the CAB thingy... The first couple of years we did very well. The last year we did CAB, they harvested the cattle and forgot to put the special tags in the brisket and there for couldn't determine what cattle was what..... So everyone who had cattle on the floor all got the CAB premium............... We lost all of our data for that year with certain cows and bulls and basically cost us more in the end even though we had 13 critters on the floor...

 

[gcreekrch]

We do have Angus tags in Canada, they can go in calves sired by red or black Angus bulls. You are allowed 40 tags for each registration paper in your name. This leaves the onus on the cow/calf guy to be truthful. Even then, I have seen the odd straight Hereford calf carrying an Angus tag.

I am not denying the quality facts, I am questioning the validity of the name.
Why aren't Red Angus inclded in CAB? They are more Angus than some blacks.

Soapweed, would you knowingly sell something that wasn't what you said it was?

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Generations of America's farmers and ranchers do the selecting, raising and feeding so our licensed restaurant and grocery store partners can offer the very best beef available – the Certified Angus Beef ® brand. It's so good, less than 8% of all beef makes the grade.

Their commitment to excellence yields incredibly flavorful, tender and juicy beef for you and your family.

Not all Angus is equal.
Other labels may say Angus, but that's where the similarities end. The difference is in the flavor. And that's where the Certified Angus Beef ® brand sets the bar. Beef must pass 10 stringent quality specifications to earn the brand's premium mark, ensuring you always enjoy flavorful, tender, juicy cuts of beef.

Every pound of Certified Angus Beef ® product is tracked for assured product integrity. The Certified Angus Beef ® brand – truly Angus beef at its best. ®

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Do calves have to be 100% Angus to qualify?
No, just Angus influenced. Cattle coming in to licensed packing plants need to be at least 51% black-hided or AngusSource® enrolled to be evaluated for the CAB brand. Most cattle entering feedlots are commercial cattle and are not purebred or "100% Angus." Carcasses from Angus-influenced cattle are then subjected to our ten specifications that ensure the consumer a pleasurable eating experience.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How many Angus-influenced cattle meet CAB carcass specifications?
On a national average, only about one in five Angus and Angus-influenced cattle at licensed plants meet all ten carcass specifications and are marketed as CAB product. Establish benchmarks on what percentage of your cattle can make CAB today. The national average may be in the teens, but some producers have an average as high as 80%--the reserve heifer entry in the 2006 National Angus Carcass Challenge was 94.7% CAB and Prime. Collect harvest information on your calves and apply it to breeding and culling decisions at the individual cow level.

Back to questions

Why don't more cattle qualify for the Certified Angus Beef ® brand?
Marbling is the major reason carcasses do not become CAB product. It is also the major contributor to CAB product's characteristic flavor and juiciness.

That is why the brand's specifications indicate marbling must be "Modest or higher." The Angus breed is traditionally known for its marbling ability, and certain lines of Angus genetics have been identified with the potential to enhance their progeny's marbling level. It was this knowledge that led to the ten carcass requirements of the CAB brand.

Many cattle meeting the brand's live animal specification are crossbred, and only carry some of the Angus genetic advantage for marbling. This usually only leads to marginal success in achieving CAB acceptance. By using registered Angus bulls with positive marbling EPDs in a well-balanced selection program, producers may strengthen the marbling capability of cattle identified for the brand.

I am curious does any one know how the hide color % is measured.

 

[katrina]

Suppose I'll throw in a point or two here...

When CAB was created in the 70's (?) there was pretty much one black-hided breed. Can you guess the name? Hence, the black-hide requirement pretty much guaranteed Angus at that time. Since then many other breeds have gone black to follow the market that was created for black Angus. So the hide color thing doesn't work quite so well anymore.

Next, I think only about 15% of the 51% black-hided cattle make it past the carcass specs for CAB. So, it sure doesn't look like just a black-hide deal and you get a rubber-stamp on that critter.

Finally, if there weren't some Angus blood in a lot of those 51% black-hided cattle that go into CAB, then I bet there also wouldn't be very many of them meeting the carcass marbling that is needed. Likely a bit of Angus in those crossbreds, don't you guess?

Jigs, I'm sorry, but I have to call you on that statement about Hereford adding the marbling to the Angus cows for your neighboring ranchers. Maybe some Hereford bulls will do so, no doubt, but as a breed I don't think that Herefords are upping the marbling ante on Angus. Yes, the Hereford cross is sure a good one and likely some benefits above straight Angus in many cases.

If I'm betting my dining budget on a good meal, I'll bet on a CAB steak every time. Chances are just way better that I'll get the kind of steak I am looking for. So what's in a name? There are specs there that help me hedge my bet.

HP

Okay.... dumb blonde question here.............
If hereford doesn't help in marbling..... Why do F1s consistantly bring more money at the salebarn than a straight angus???

 

[Soapweed]

Soapweed, would you knowingly sell something that wasn't what you said it was?

No, I wouldn't, and that is why I often lose money on a horse trade. :?

I do, however, sleep well at night.

There are crooks in every game, and those who bend the rules to suit their own needs. This is no modern-type of affliction. It has been going on since the start of Time. We all have to live with ourselves and the reputation we bring upon ourselves. If extra money is important enough to lie, cheat, or steal, the perpetrators should have sympathy, not admiration.

Okay.... dumb blonde question here.............
If hereford doesn't help in marbling..... Why do F1s consistantly bring more money at the salebarn than a straight angus???

F1's don't "consistenly" bring more money than straight Angus, but they do consistently bring more money than straight Herefords, especially when selling as calves. Straight Hereford yearlings tend to bring just as much as F1's or straight Angus.

 

[katrina]

Soapweed, would you knowingly sell something that wasn't what you said it was?

No, I wouldn't, and that is why I often lose money on a horse trade. :?

I do, however, sleep well at night.

There are crooks in every game, and those who bend the rules to suit their own needs. This is no modern-type of affliction. It has been going on since the start of Time. We all have to live with ourselves and the reputation we bring upon ourselves. If extra money is important enough to lie, cheat, or steal, the perpetrators should have sympathy, not admiration.

Okay.... dumb blonde question here.............
If hereford doesn't help in marbling..... Why do F1s consistantly bring more money at the salebarn than a straight angus???

F1's don't "consistenly" bring more money than straight Angus, but they do consistently bring more money than straight Herefords, especially when selling as calves. Straight Hereford yearlings tend to bring just as much as F1's or straight Angus.

I guess will just have to disagree on this one... Not all salebarns are he same.. :wink: But if hereford yearlings bring as much then what is that saying??

 

[Soapweed]

Soapweed, would you knowingly sell something that wasn't what you said it was?

No, I wouldn't, and that is why I often lose money on a horse trade. :?

I do, however, sleep well at night.

There are crooks in every game, and those who bend the rules to suit their own needs. This is no modern-type of affliction. It has been going on since the start of Time. We all have to live with ourselves and the reputation we bring upon ourselves. If extra money is important enough to lie, cheat, or steal, the perpetrators should have sympathy, not admiration.

Okay.... dumb blonde question here.............
If hereford doesn't help in marbling..... Why do F1s consistantly bring more money at the salebarn than a straight angus???

F1's don't "consistenly" bring more money than straight Angus, but they do consistently bring more money than straight Herefords, especially when selling as calves. Straight Hereford yearlings tend to bring just as much as F1's or straight Angus.

I guess will just have to disagree on this one... Not all salebarns are he same.. :wink: But if hereford yearlings bring as much then what is that saying??

Check out the Valentine sale barn reports. You can go back for many years on their web-page.

By the time a Hereford is a yearling, many of their problems are out of the way. :wink:

 

[Faster horses]

Soap is right. We have a good friend who is a cattle buyer and he told
us a long time ago that there was some resistance to buying Hereford
calves, but the feeders love Hereford yearlings and they will sell
right up with anything else. It was interesting to me,as I hadn't heard
that.

 

[Grassfarmer]

Good post FH but I think you may have missed my intent.

Why would a producer go to the extra effort and cost of putting Certified Angus tags in actual Angus sired calves when the rules at the packing house state 50% black hided and to meet a certain grade. If the assn. stood by their Angus sired rule and the grading percentage was the same, would that not make the qualified product worth that much more?


How much Angus does a black Holstein have in it's ancestry?

How many black Holsteins meet the 10 specifications to qualify for the program? Not many, I'll bet. If a black Holstein carcass does qualify in all ten departments, and the quality and taste of the meat is almost assured, let them in. I'd rather eat a black Holstein that does qualify rather than a mediocre straight Angus carcass that doesn't qualify. It would appear that if a carcass meets the ten specifications, the taste is pretty well guaranteed. The CAB program is a marketing standard assuring taste. It just so happens that Angus-influenced beef is "usually" what it takes to qualify, but meeting the more stringent ten standards is what actually determines which beef is approved.

Soapweed I can't give you the carcass data or yields but there is a dairy producer in my area who has likely forgotten more about quality grass production than most of us will ever know. He grass fattens a few surplus holstein or holstain x brown swiss heifers every year. The beef off these animals is just outstanding. We also have a high profile organic beef seller in this area who is very busy (not the one that posts on here by the way although Dylan will likely know the two outfits I'm talking about :wink: )This other organic beef guy uses mainly Angus genetics I think - if you taste tested the two products i'll be absolutely positive you'd go for the dairy beef every time. Breed isn't really a huge part of beef quality in my opinion.

 

[flyingS]

Soapweed, I can't help but comment on your comment about losing money on a horse trade. Soap really can't be considered a horse trader, maybe a broker would be the term, I have thought long and hard on how to describe it. He is the only guy that I know that will tell you up front what he gave for the horse and tell you all of its vices then give you the option to buy it. He represents all of his business ventures the same way. I can honestly say that I have always respected Soap knowing that what he told me was fact and when he shook my hand it was better than a signature. To get to the point it is not people like Soapweed that set the market in any industry, that is why there are premiums. It is the dishonest mis-represented product that sets the price, once you develope a reputation as having a fair and honest commodity then you see the rewards. Reputation sellers, sell to reputation buyers. All the rest have to settle for what they get. If you do not get reputation buyers to look at your calves maybe you need to take a long look at how you are representing your cattle and be honest with yourself about the quality. No offense intended to anyone.

 

[Soapweed]

Thanks for the kind words, flyingS. Maybe I am more honest than smart? :?

 

[Triangle Bar]

What is Certified Angus Beef ® (CAB) product?
The Certified Angus Beef ® brand is reserved for Angus beef that, after meeting the live specification of being at least 51% black-hided or AngusSource® enrolled, is verified by the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) as meeting the ten CAB carcass specifications:

1. Modest or higher marbling
2. Medium or fine marbling texture
3. "A" maturity for each, lean and skeletal characteristics
4. 10 to 16 square inch ribeye area
5. Less than 1,000 pound hot carcass weight
6. Less than 1 inch fat thickness
7. Superior muscling (restricts dairy influence)
8. Practically free of capillary rupture
9. No dark cutters
10. No neck hump exceeding 2 inches

51% black hide can be 1% Angus and still qualify if it meets the other specs.

MWJ has a good point. Although you are asked to sign a document that states that your product is 50% angus when you sell it CAB. The problem is those people who take advantage of the program to get the benefit. There name obviously means nothing if they are willing to put it on a mis-represented document. The true problem is that the industry is so busy trying to get one up on everyone else that a handshake has become just a handshake and is no longer considered a contract. People do not like the CAB program becuase their cattle do not fit and they can not take advantage of the premium. There is nothing in the guideline that says that it is 100% angus. It is probably the best marketing tool to ever hit the industry and now others are following suit. This will offend someone I am sure. COOL is no different. People do not want to go throught the extra work to conform to the programs requirements. Yet, why wouldn't you want a stamp on your meet that represents it as RAISED IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. I do not agree with all the guidelines with either program. We have been forced to change becuase there are to many of us unwilling to change. We have to start somewhere. What ever program you follow you need to be proud of it and represent it as it truly is. Honesty and integrity always prevale.

Thank you FlyingS. I'll admit right off I don't know much about CAB.... it's sounds from some of the posts, that CAB has evolved from being an 'Angus' product to being 'Angus' most of the time, with a wink :wink: and a nod :nod:. Along with the qualification, 'Angus is name recognition to the consumer'... what they don't know won't hurt them. :shock:

FlyingS is right on, honesty, integrity, and true representation should be the backbone of any such program. If this program has been hijacked by others to claim the premiums, then the Angus folks should take back their program and change what qualifies as CAB.

Otherwise what has become a name recognized product and marketing tool could be manipulated in the consumer arena as just another marketing ploy designed to fool consumers into buying a labeled product. You know how these media types are... it's often the perceived impropriety rather than the meat (no pun intended) of the story that is damnable to a product or industry.

 

[PATB]

The specs for CAB have not change since inception but the cattle being marketed have. No where in the specs does it say it has to have angus on 51% black hided and meet age and carcass specs. As stated before the majority of the cattle were other than black when CAB was started. The majority other breeds have changed color to take advantage of the CAB premium. If you want red cattle sell under red angus and herdfords have CHB. How many times are we going to keep breeding this dead horse?

 

[Triangle Bar]

The specs for CAB have not change since inception but the cattle being marketed have. No where in the specs does it say it has to have angus on 51% black hided and meet age and carcass specs. As stated before the majority of the cattle were other than black when CAB was started. The majority other breeds have changed color to take advantage of the CAB premium. If you want red cattle sell under red angus and herdfords have CHB. How many times are we going to keep breeding this dead horse?

So... CAB has been a misrepresentation from it's inception? It never had anything to do with promoting angus beef? How bout re-labeling it CBHB (certified black hided beef). :wink:

Regardless of the label I'm sure it's tasty.

 

[RobertMac]

Generations of America's farmers and ranchers do the selecting, raising and feeding so our licensed restaurant and grocery store partners can offer the very best beef available – the Certified Angus Beef ® brand. It's so good, less than 8% of all beef makes the grade.

Their commitment to excellence yields incredibly flavorful, tender and juicy beef for you and your family.

Not all Angus is equal.
Other labels may say Angus, but that's where the similarities end. The difference is in the flavor. And that's where the Certified Angus Beef ® brand sets the bar. Beef must pass 10 stringent quality specifications to earn the brand's premium mark, ensuring you always enjoy flavorful, tender, juicy cuts of beef.

Every pound of Certified Angus Beef ® product is tracked for assured product integrity. The Certified Angus Beef ® brand – truly Angus beef at its best. ®

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Do calves have to be 100% Angus to qualify?
No, just Angus influenced. Cattle coming in to licensed packing plants need to be at least 51% black-hided or AngusSource® enrolled to be evaluated for the CAB brand. Most cattle entering feedlots are commercial cattle and are not purebred or "100% Angus." Carcasses from Angus-influenced cattle are then subjected to our ten specifications that ensure the consumer a pleasurable eating experience.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How many Angus-influenced cattle meet CAB carcass specifications?
On a national average, only about one in five Angus and Angus-influenced cattle at licensed plants meet all ten carcass specifications and are marketed as CAB product. Establish benchmarks on what percentage of your cattle can make CAB today. The national average may be in the teens, but some producers have an average as high as 80%--the reserve heifer entry in the 2006 National Angus Carcass Challenge was 94.7% CAB and Prime. Collect harvest information on your calves and apply it to breeding and culling decisions at the individual cow level.

Back to questions

Why don't more cattle qualify for the Certified Angus Beef ® brand?
Marbling is the major reason carcasses do not become CAB product. It is also the major contributor to CAB product's characteristic flavor and juiciness.

That is why the brand's specifications indicate marbling must be "Modest or higher." The Angus breed is traditionally known for its marbling ability, and certain lines of Angus genetics have been identified with the potential to enhance their progeny's marbling level. It was this knowledge that led to the ten carcass requirements of the CAB brand.

Many cattle meeting the brand's live animal specification are crossbred, and only carry some of the Angus genetic advantage for marbling. This usually only leads to marginal success in achieving CAB acceptance. By using registered Angus bulls with positive marbling EPDs in a well-balanced selection program, producers may strengthen the marbling capability of cattle identified for the brand.

I am curious does any one know how the hide color % is measured.

By the quality grade of the carcass??????? :shock: :wink: