Temple Grandin cattle handling video...what do you think?

[griffy]

I saw this interesting video by Grandin...wondered what everyone thought?

http://www.farms.com/FarmsPages/Commentary/DetailedCommentary/tabid/192/Default.aspx?NewsId=29084

 

[Classic]

Had a chance to meet her at the UofA last year. Lady really knows her stuff.

 

[Hay Feeder]

She does a great job. She has several books out also dealing with all animals and her handicap that she has had to deal with. Not just cattle.
I think a couple of her books should be required reading in public schools at least in Ag class.

 

[flyingS]

I think that what she does works. I am not impressed that when you hear her speak that she is continually trying to sell you something. She will sell you a million dollar set of corals in a heart beat. I am a Bud Williams fan for lots of reasons. First of I can take what Bud teaches and go out and use it in the pasture when I move a set of cows. Second I don't have a bunch of guys with a flag whip or paddle in their hand getting all jazzed up and getting cattle worked up. There is more to handling cattle than just working them through a set of pens. If you do things right when you handle them everyday they handle right everyday, not matter the circumstances. I think that Temple should be applauded for her accomplishments and for what she has done for the cattle industry (as far as promoting a low stress environment). I just am not a fan of her techniques. Some of her techniques are pretty similar to Bud Williams, the ones that are not are almost opposite.

 

[RSL]

I think that what she does works. I am not impressed that when you hear her speak that she is continually trying to sell you something. She will sell you a million dollar set of corals in a heart beat. I am a Bud Williams fan for lots of reasons. First of I can take what Bud teaches and go out and use it in the pasture when I move a set of cows. Second I don't have a bunch of guys with a flag whip or paddle in their hand getting all jazzed up and getting cattle worked up. There is more to handling cattle than just working them through a set of pens. If you do things right when you handle them everyday they handle right everyday, not matter the circumstances. I think that Temple should be applauded for her accomplishments and for what she has done for the cattle industry (as far as promoting a low stress environment). I just am not a fan of her techniques. Some of her techniques are pretty similar to Bud Williams, the ones that are not are almost opposite.

I agree with a lot of that. I think Temple is quite brilliant and in a situation (like a packing plant or feedlot) where the help is not always helpful or aware of animal behaviour her setups are tremendous. Bud Williams approach also works, but may take a bit more skill. It also takes a lot less infrastructure and $$$ to implement. Until I got on the internet I never realized I have used Bud's techniques my whole lifetime, without knowing they were my dad's. I guess I would say Bud's more ranch wisdom, and Temple is more production wisdom.

 

[mrj]

RSL, I think you really nailed it! It seems so many of the techniques are what the best cattle handlers have instinctively learned from the great older cowboys......who also may not have been able to articulate WHY or HOW their methods worked, but just from observing cause and effect from the start of their work with cattle. Along with being keen observers, and not having the attitude that they will force THEIR will onto an animal, OR ELSE! A major problem, IMO, has been that too many of them were/are reluctant to tell others how to do it, often in the belief that people should be able to see for themselves what works if they are ever going to be worth a darn as a cowboy!!!

BTW, I've heard Ms. Grandin speak many times to groups of cattlemen, and a few private conversations. I didn't hear the 'hard sell', but she did mention the opportunity to check out her systems and diagrams for chutes, corrals, etc. She pointed them out at least in part to save time in the presentations, as people could check out more thoroughly what she was hitting the highlights of in her talks.

mrj

 

[leanin' H]

While I am sure the folks mentioned are good at what they teach. I guess I figured thats why we have Grandpas and Fathers and uncles and older neighboring ranchers that hire youngsters. If a person didnt have that around them I guess somebody could try to "teach" it. But knowing a cows pressure point, when to take a step or back up, watching body language, and a million other things you do to work cattle efficiently, safely and gently comes in the bloodstream. Combine that with lots of months a horseback or a foot working cattle and your cattle get worked pretty smooth. When it comes to pens, nobody has to re-invent anything and put it in a book or video. Folks have only been penning and working cattle for thousands of years. It borders on arrogance to think "I" have a new way! The way gates swing or alleys merge or even the slope of the ground all are important and probably used by somebody 1300 years ago. :wink:

 

[Soapweed]

While I am sure the folks mentioned are good at what they teach. I guess I figured thats why we have Grandpas and Fathers and uncles and older neighboring ranchers that hire youngsters. If a person didnt have that around them I guess somebody could try to "teach" it. But knowing a cows pressure point, when to take a step or back up, watching body language, and a million other things you do to work cattle efficiently, safely and gently comes in the bloodstream. Combine that with lots of months a horseback or a foot working cattle and your cattle get worked pretty smooth. When it comes to pens, nobody has to re-invent anything and put it in a book or video. Folks have only been penning and working cattle for thousands of years. It borders on arrogance to think "I" have a new way! The way gates swing or alleys merge or even the slope of the ground all are important and probably used by somebody 1300 years ago. :wink:

And if there is a dog anywhere in the vicinity, make sure it isn't standing right in the middle of the gate you are trying to coax the cattle through. :wink:

 

[leanin' H]

While I am sure the folks mentioned are good at what they teach. I guess I figured thats why we have Grandpas and Fathers and uncles and older neighboring ranchers that hire youngsters. If a person didnt have that around them I guess somebody could try to "teach" it. But knowing a cows pressure point, when to take a step or back up, watching body language, and a million other things you do to work cattle efficiently, safely and gently comes in the bloodstream. Combine that with lots of months a horseback or a foot working cattle and your cattle get worked pretty smooth. When it comes to pens, nobody has to re-invent anything and put it in a book or video. Folks have only been penning and working cattle for thousands of years. It borders on arrogance to think "I" have a new way! The way gates swing or alleys merge or even the slope of the ground all are important and probably used by somebody 1300 years ago. :wink:

And if there is a dog anywhere in the vicinity, make sure it isn't standing right in the middle of the gate you are trying to coax the cattle through. :wink:

You and I belong to the same church when it comes to dogs and cattle! :wink: :lol: :lol: Can I get an AMEN!!!!!!

 

[Soapweed]

While I am sure the folks mentioned are good at what they teach. I guess I figured thats why we have Grandpas and Fathers and uncles and older neighboring ranchers that hire youngsters. If a person didnt have that around them I guess somebody could try to "teach" it. But knowing a cows pressure point, when to take a step or back up, watching body language, and a million other things you do to work cattle efficiently, safely and gently comes in the bloodstream. Combine that with lots of months a horseback or a foot working cattle and your cattle get worked pretty smooth. When it comes to pens, nobody has to re-invent anything and put it in a book or video. Folks have only been penning and working cattle for thousands of years. It borders on arrogance to think "I" have a new way! The way gates swing or alleys merge or even the slope of the ground all are important and probably used by somebody 1300 years ago. :wink:

And if there is a dog anywhere in the vicinity, make sure it isn't standing right in the middle of the gate you are trying to coax the cattle through. :wink:

You and I belong to the same church when it comes to dogs and cattle! :wink: :lol: :lol: Can I get an AMEN!!!!!!

Hallelujah, brother!

We do need to really walk the straight and narrow, because I get the feeling we are in a definite minority around most of our Rancher.net friends. :wink:

 

[leanin' H]

And if there is a dog anywhere in the vicinity, make sure it isn't standing right in the middle of the gate you are trying to coax the cattle through. :wink:

You and I belong to the same church when it comes to dogs and cattle! :wink: :lol: :lol: Can I get an AMEN!!!!!!

Hallelujah, brother!

We do need to really walk the straight and narrow, because I get the feeling we are in a definite minority around most of our Rancher.net friends. :wink:

Keep the Faith, Soap! Keep the Faith!

 

[Soapweed]

You and I belong to the same church when it comes to dogs and cattle! :wink: :lol: :lol: Can I get an AMEN!!!!!!

Hallelujah, brother!

We do need to really walk the straight and narrow, because I get the feeling we are in a definite minority around most of our Rancher.net friends. :wink:

Keep the Faith, Soap! Keep the Faith!

And without dogs, I can also keep my sanity. Besides without dogs, I'm not mad all the time, which will ultimately give my a better shot at being allowed through the Pearly Gates.

 

[PPRM]

While I am sure the folks mentioned are good at what they teach. I guess I figured thats why we have Grandpas and Fathers and uncles and older neighboring ranchers that hire youngsters. If a person didnt have that around them I guess somebody could try to "teach" it. But knowing a cows pressure point, when to take a step or back up, watching body language, and a million other things you do to work cattle efficiently, safely and gently comes in the bloodstream. Combine that with lots of months a horseback or a foot working cattle and your cattle get worked pretty smooth. When it comes to pens, nobody has to re-invent anything and put it in a book or video. Folks have only been penning and working cattle for thousands of years. It borders on arrogance to think "I" have a new way! The way gates swing or alleys merge or even the slope of the ground all are important and probably used by somebody 1300 years ago. :wink:

And if there is a dog anywhere in the vicinity, make sure it isn't standing right in the middle of the gate you are trying to coax the cattle through. :wink:

See, you're doing it wrong. The Dog should be bringing the cattle to you,

;-}

 

[Soapweed]

While I am sure the folks mentioned are good at what they teach. I guess I figured thats why we have Grandpas and Fathers and uncles and older neighboring ranchers that hire youngsters. If a person didnt have that around them I guess somebody could try to "teach" it. But knowing a cows pressure point, when to take a step or back up, watching body language, and a million other things you do to work cattle efficiently, safely and gently comes in the bloodstream. Combine that with lots of months a horseback or a foot working cattle and your cattle get worked pretty smooth. When it comes to pens, nobody has to re-invent anything and put it in a book or video. Folks have only been penning and working cattle for thousands of years. It borders on arrogance to think "I" have a new way! The way gates swing or alleys merge or even the slope of the ground all are important and probably used by somebody 1300 years ago. :wink:

And if there is a dog anywhere in the vicinity, make sure it isn't standing right in the middle of the gate you are trying to coax the cattle through. :wink:

See, you're doing it wrong. The Dog should be bringing the cattle to you,

;-}

The sun should shine every day, with just enough breeze to turn the windmills, and there should be half an inch of rain per week. This is in an ideal world. :wink: Unfortunately we are not living in an ideal world. :? Through quite a bit of hands on experience, I have discovered a few axioms that can make my world operate more ideally, regardless of things that can't be controlled. Not having a "cowdog" around is great for starters. I'd rather have a non-cowdog on hand, than a dog that is always trying to molest the cattle. This is my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

 

[floyd]

So, what public speaker does not try to sell you something?


Our grandparents used horses to farm. Does that mean we should use horses to farm instead of trying something new?

 

[Blkbuckaroo]

A "working Cow Dog" is worth it's weight in gold when trained and worked right,a "Cow Dog" has it's place to,usually on the back of a pickup truck :wink: Anyone who's gotten tired of cattle going through or over fences,turning back,regathering the pasture,or going where there not wanted or any other number of things cattle do,learns pretty quick the value of what quiet,low stress handling skills are all about,all on thier own.I hope.

 

[Faster horses]

If you have enough people helping, you can get by without a good dog.
In our situation, it is Mr. FH alone most of the time, since I can't ride
anymore. He could not manage without his dog. We have had some
great ones. The one we have now isn't great, he's maybe not even
average; but he minds well and he does help. We would not tolerate
a dog that does not mind. Mr. FH trains them from a little pup and he
very seldom has to raise his voice.

I can understand those that don't want dogs around their cows.
Years ago we helped a fellow trail some cows home--it was a two
day trail--and another rancher brought his 3 dogs. Those dogs were
terrible; would not mind; they more like a pack. I saw them get a cow down; no kidding. :shock:
That's why I can understand some ranchers not liking dogs.
But for us, we have always needed and used a dog or two (or three.)

 

[lazy ace]

we had a neighbor that couldn't get a pair out of a deep draw with a lot of timber, he tried everything his brother showed up and asked him why there was a cow and calf in the draw. He told him if he could get them loaded he could have the pair. He took his border collie and the trailor and loaded them up with no panels or horse in about a half an hour. A dog should be considered just like a horse they are as only as good as their handler.


just my opinion

lazy ace

 

[JF Ranch]

I'm somewhat on the same page as Soapweed, however neither of us have ever had a good working cow dog, so how would we really know? Using a good dog would be like riding a good horse. If you aren't handy at training them, the result won't be good. My interest is in horses, not dogs. Therefore, I've not had the desire for one but I can appreciate someone who has a good dog and knows how to handle him.

We had a dog (pet) we called Sammy that thought he was a cow dog. He was quite aggressive in his opinion of his cattle working abilities. Since this "Heinz 57" was normally in the wrong place at all times, we found a solution that kept us from killing the pet.

Whenever we were working cattle either in the corrals or in the pasture on horseback, we'd take down a rope and tie him to a fence post somewhere out of the way. He didn't seem to mind this treatment and it kept him from being a nuisance or in the middle of the gate. Once the task was finished our canine companion was allowed to resume his role as "wannabe" cow dog and he usually complied with our verbal lambasts.

Not long after this dog met his demise (got run over by a truck), we had employed a local school boy for the summer. This kid was not a country boy and knew very little about ranch work. But he was eager and wanted to be helpful, sorta like our Sammy.

We were sorting yearling steers in the corner of a pasture on horseback one afternoon. This kid was always in the way and disrupted nearly everything my Dad & I were trying to do. He didn't seem to understand our verbal commands any better than the dog did. After a period of time and nearly exasperated, my Dad passed by close enough to say under his breath, "Should we just tie him to a fence post?"

I laughed so hard I almost fell off my horse. It became a family joke and a useful expression for dealing with things when they don't go as well as they should.

 

[gcreekrch]

JF, you did exactly as you should have if you weren't wanting your dog to help. Ours go everywhere with us but they know when to stay out of the pens when their help isn't need. When we are checking cows at calving a quiet "stay" will stop them anywhere they are while a pair is inspected at a closer distance.
I have been fortunate to have two exceptional dogs. The last one is 15 now and still helps at his elderly slower pace. The other three we currently have now are a working progress but at times everything seems to fall into place. :roll:

Soapweed's comment about not being mad all the time made me smile as I have been there done that.
The sad part is that I'm either too grumpy for the neighbors or too broke to hire a helper so the dogs and I will be enjoying each other's company for a time yet :wink: